Should all buildings without cavity be lime plastered and rendered?

JayJSF

Member
Should all buildings with no cavity be lime plastered internally and lime rendered externally so they can breathe?

Might sound like a simple question to most but i've only ever seen/been taught with gypsum products!
 

JayJSF

Member
you can ewi the externals.
regs will let you use gypsum and most customers will prefer gypsum because of costs

So I'm guessing the EWI will stop the exterior face getting cold/damp and won't create moisture in the bungaroosh??

Been to a lot of jobs where there's damp showing on walls inside on every floor but the render outside looks good, now I know material used must be the problem!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

vfr12

MOTORC*NT
I work mostly in Brighton which is mostly victorian houses and a lot of bungaroosh walls and have never seen a spread using lime render/plaster. Only seen lime added to sand and cement!

I'll put it this way - concrete is holding the lime for the first 50 years. Lime is holding the concrete for the next 300 years
 

Dansouthcoast84

Private Member
So I'm guessing the EWI will stop the exterior face getting cold/damp and won't create moisture in the bungaroosh??

Been to a lot of jobs where there's damp showing on walls inside on every floor but the render outside looks good, now I know material used must be the problem!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i priced a bungeroosh for ewi last year in brighton.
her house on the gable wall severly exposed to the weather was black inside. the worst ive ever seen.
9 humidifiers house was ruined.
but ewi will stop that
 

Bauwer

Well-Known Member

I believe the answer to the question "should ALL buildings with no cavity be plastered internally and rendered externally only with breathable materials, so they can breathe?" is No.

Insulation materials with low permeability are not entirely incompatible with older construction but careful thought needs to be given to reducing levels of water vapour moving through such construction either by means of effectively ventilated cavities or through vapour control layers.

Historic England suggest that impermeable materials could be used in traditionally build properties with adequate risk analysis on moisture movement. That's could mean mechanical vapour extraction, cavity introduction and installing a vapour membrane. Those measures are typically not cost efficient but could be done. Also brick walls are less permeable vs stone walls, therefore moisture build up risks are much higher for single skin stone walls vs brick walls with no cavity. There are many examples of impermeable petroleum based EPS, Kingspan, Celotex EWI insulation of solid brick walls with the only negative being that brick walls absorb moisture and later dry to inside vs outside, creating an unpleasant smell of old building.

Historic England guidelines:
https://content.historicengland.org...sulating-solid-walls/heag081-solid-walls.pdf/
 
I work mostly in Brighton which is mostly victorian houses and a lot of bungaroosh walls and have never seen a spread using lime render/plaster. Only seen lime added to sand and cement!

Yes they should otherwise they cant breathe and the moisture gets trapped in the walls therefore causing damp.
Putting cement in lime is a waste of time most do it to speed up drying time or are inexperienced with lime but it still stops it breathing and defeats the object
 

Bauwer

Well-Known Member
Several breathable insulation options are presented below. Breathability is measured by vapour permeability coefficient which needs to be below 15 in order to call material breathable. Breathability coefficient of 4 is considered highly breathable or highly vapour permeable, allowing property to breath and to dry out to outside:
 

limeplastering

Active Member
Your question answers it's self as not all buildings with out a cavity have a external render on them. How ever the problem occurs when the old bricks start to absorb moisture or rain. The worst common mistake is to then use external sand and cement renders on these properties as it does more harm. In regurds to internal plaster all external walls should be lime or stud work then plasterboard as gypsum plaster such as hardwall will only absorb like a sponge.
 
Hi,

Hoping this query is relevant to the group as I am looking for a plasterer for a Victorian house I have. We have stripped all of the walls down to the bare brick and now needing to plaster. We have put in all new ceiling joists and new stud walls - assume its okay to use gypsum on these areas?

As for the bare brick areas, there are two external walls (front and back), both sides are joint with neighbours as its a terraced property - will the plaster need to be treated differently on these walls?

I don't feel I am being guided correctly by those I have met so far who are suggested to hardwall it all so would appreciate your thoughts!
 
Hi,

Hoping this query is relevant to the group as I am looking for a plasterer for a Victorian house I have. We have stripped all of the walls down to the bare brick and now needing to plaster. We have put in all new ceiling joists and new stud walls - assume its okay to use gypsum on these areas?

As for the bare brick areas, there are two external walls (front and back), both sides are joint with neighbours as its a terraced property - will the plaster need to be treated differently on these walls?

I don't feel I am being guided correctly by those I have met so far who are suggested to hardwall it all so would appreciate your thoughts!

@theclemo @irish_spread @zolco @Arti @flynnyman @Bauwer to name a few :D
 

flynnyman

Well-Known Member
Hi,

Hoping this query is relevant to the group as I am looking for a plasterer for a Victorian house I have. We have stripped all of the walls down to the bare brick and now needing to plaster. We have put in all new ceiling joists and new stud walls - assume its okay to use gypsum on these areas?

As for the bare brick areas, there are two external walls (front and back), both sides are joint with neighbours as its a terraced property - will the plaster need to be treated differently on these walls?

I don't feel I am being guided correctly by those I have met so far who are suggested to hardwall it all so would appreciate your thoughts!
Might be worth soundproofing at this stage if you have the space.
 

bopper

Active Member
Hi,

Hoping this query is relevant to the group as I am looking for a plasterer for a Victorian house I have. We have stripped all of the walls down to the bare brick and now needing to plaster. We have put in all new ceiling joists and new stud walls - assume its okay to use gypsum on these areas?

As for the bare brick areas, there are two external walls (front and back), both sides are joint with neighbours as its a terraced property - will the plaster need to be treated differently on these walls?

I don't feel I am being guided correctly by those I have met so far who are suggested to hardwall it all so would appreciate your thoughts!
Any pics Curtis?
 

irish_spread

Private Member
Hi,

Hoping this query is relevant to the group as I am looking for a plasterer for a Victorian house I have. We have stripped all of the walls down to the bare brick and now needing to plaster. We have put in all new ceiling joists and new stud walls - assume its okay to use gypsum on these areas?

As for the bare brick areas, there are two external walls (front and back), both sides are joint with neighbours as its a terraced property - will the plaster need to be treated differently on these walls?

I don't feel I am being guided correctly by those I have met so far who are suggested to hardwall it all so would appreciate your thoughts!


Sand and cement with waterproofer on external walls that could be prone to penetrating damp. Same in bathrooms. No need for lime .
 

irish_spread

Private Member
Your question answers it's self as not all buildings with out a cavity have a external render on them. How ever the problem occurs when the old bricks start to absorb moisture or rain. The worst common mistake is to then use external sand and cement renders on these properties as it does more harm. In regurds to internal plaster all external walls should be lime or stud work then plasterboard as gypsum plaster such as hardwall will only absorb like a sponge.

Disagree with all external walls being lime etc. Sand and cement with waterproofer is sufficient . Most well maintained 9"/11" solid brick walls are reasonably w/proof, the sand and cement is bib and braces and helps with raised ground levels, dodgy window cills etc
 

limeplastering

Active Member
irish spread I'm sorry to say this but you don't have a clue what your talking about. Sand and cement on a wall with no cavity is the worse possible thing you could do to a old property. Think you need to take a look at this http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/ten/tenways.htm People like yourself are giving wrong advice and destroying our old buildings. Please leave this type of work to people who know what they are doing your making it hard for honest people who know what they our doing make a living stick with the multi-finish mate your wellllllll out of your depth
 

Ronnie

Active Member
I render in brighton on bungaroosh using hydraulic lime no cement, then decorate with silicate masonry paint. But your right the vast majority just s and c, then the damproofing charlatans follow making a fortune as they go.
 

irish_spread

Private Member
irish spread I'm sorry to say this but you don't have a clue what your talking about. Sand and cement on a wall with no cavity is the worse possible thing you could do to a old property. Think you need to take a look at this http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/ten/tenways.htm People like yourself are giving wrong advice and destroying our old buildings. Please leave this type of work to people who know what they are doing your making it hard for honest people who know what they our doing make a living stick with the multi-finish mate your wellllllll out of your depth


Hmm. Thanks for your comment re the multi finish and being out of my depth. I've been plastering, and that's all round plastering for over 30 years. My dad , uncles, cousins are all plasterers and I feel that you may be out of your depth my old cupcake. OPC has been around for some time now and when used by someone with limited knowledge or a keyboard expert, it can fail. It's always the ones that know the least that make sweeping statements like you have.

Its almost like you've got a vested interest in lime plastering @limeplastering but I think you may.....
 

irish_spread

Private Member
Hmm. Thanks for your comment re the multi finish and being out of my depth. I've been plastering, and that's all round plastering for over 30 years. My dad , uncles, cousins are all plasterers and I feel that you may be out of your depth my old cupcake. OPC has been around for some time now and when used by someone with limited knowledge or a keyboard expert, it can fail. It's always the ones that know the least that make sweeping statements like you have.

Its almost like you've got a vested interest in lime plastering @limeplastering but I think you may.....


Furthermore, because you never bothered to read what I said properly, I was saying to render internally, not externally. I hope you understand now. If not pm me and I'll explain the process
 

limeplastering

Active Member
Furthermore, because you never bothered to read what I said properly, I was saying to render internally, not externally. I hope you understand now. If not pm me and I'll explain the process
Lets get this right so your suggesting to render internally a single 6inch wall with no cavity in sand and cement?????????? I think you have no knowledge what so ever mate what the hell is the point in putting a breathable lime render on the outside if there is sand and cement on the inside MATE ITS ONLY ONE BRICK THICK thats what no cavity means just in case you didn't know.
Same old story a little bit of knowledge in the wrong hands in dangerous............spend half my time hacking this sort of mess off!
Next you will be suggesting a chemical damp injection :loco:
 

irish_spread

Private Member
Lets get this right so your suggesting to render internally a single 6inch wall with no cavity in sand and cement?????????? I think you have no knowledge what so ever mate what the hell is the point in putting a breathable lime render on the outside if there is sand and cement on the inside MATE ITS ONLY ONE BRICK THICK thats what no cavity means just in case you didn't know.
Same old story a little bit of knowledge in the wrong hands in dangerous............spend half my time hacking this sort of mess off!
Next you will be suggesting a chemical damp injection :loco:


I understand it's school holidays but where is this 6" thick wall coming from ? Single brick also ? That's a thick brick but not as thick as you it would seem. Also who mentioned there was an external lime render ?
Chemical injection is a waste of time also.

Ok, bedtime for you now
 

limeplastering

Active Member
Hmm. Thanks for your comment re the multi finish and being out of my depth. I've been plastering, and that's all round plastering for over 30 years. My dad , uncles, cousins are all plasterers and I feel that you may be out of your depth my old cupcake. OPC has been around for some time now and when used by someone with limited knowledge or a keyboard expert, it can fail. It's always the ones that know the least that make sweeping statements like you have.

Its almost like you've got a vested interest in lime plastering @limeplastering but I think you may.....
Yes i do have a interest in lime plastering as its what i do its the majority of my work load and we specialise in it so im not really sure is that spose to be a trick question or some thing?
 

limeplastering

Active Member
I understand it's school holidays but where is this 6" thick wall coming from ? Single brick also ? That's a thick brick but not as thick as you it would seem. Also who mentioned there was an external lime render ?
Chemical injection is a waste of time also.

Ok, bedtime for you now
yes mate a 6 inch wall with no cavity looks like this
raza3.jpg
 

jimbo71

Active Member
Lets get this right so your suggesting to render internally a single 6inch wall with no cavity in sand and cement?????????? I think you have no knowledge what so ever mate what the hell is the point in putting a breathable lime render on the outside if there is sand and cement on the inside MATE ITS ONLY ONE BRICK THICK thats what no cavity means just in case you didn't know.
Same old story a little bit of knowledge in the wrong hands in dangerous............spend half my time hacking this sort of mess off!
Next you will be suggesting a chemical damp injection :loco:

Single brick as in a garden wall? Isnt that called half a brick thick
 

limeplastering

Active Member
I'm not sure how to break this to you but that's 9" solid wall. If I was you I'd just give up at this stage. Nighty night young man
Its a example of how it is built (the bond) thought you didnt know may be you would recognise this one a bit better its got a load of sand and cement falling off it
images
 
Top