Parex or Lime Render?

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Well at last someone has come along and said mono couche is s**t, fair play to you Mr Kellly cos ive seen it fail loads of times maybe for different reasons but it has failed more times than it has worked, even NHL is not proven there are a couple of big companies plying their goods but only for their own interest the only true product is Lime putty morter.Do you have a link to these blocks you are using in France?
 
lucius said:
Well at last someone has come along and said mono couche is s**t, fair play to you Mr Kellly cos ive seen it fail loads of times maybe for different reasons but it has failed more times than it has worked, even NHL is not proven there are a couple of big companies plying their goods but only for their own interest the only true product is Lime putty morter.Do you have a link to these blocks you are using in France?
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Hi lucius,


Thanks for the reply.



Here are some links below to the uk version for the Porotherm blocks I've used. The first is a general site link, the second takes you to a pdf download page. I've just recieved a pdf of rendering specifications but it's in French, I've ask for it in English, but I'm not sure they'll have it. From just browsing the specifications it seems that you can use a number of systems including monocouche, sand/cement and nhl based renders. Interestingly enough it says not to use a barrier to stop suction but to just dampen with water half hour before any application. I'll do some further digging to see if I can get more information from Porotherm-uk. I'm now wondering if it is necesarry for this system to breath due to the thickness of the blocks as s/c can be used.

HTML: 
http://www.porothermuk.co.uk

HTML: 
http://www.porothermuk.co.uk/resources.cfm

Many thanks for your help.

cj
 
Might be a bit late to join the debate here but to add to your comments on "sooner spending the money where it counts" is something that is always on my mind as a render contractor, I always come across the usual, rendering done last - budget gone scenario etc or can we use sand and cement to keep the cost down etc.

In my opinion on a new build that is to be rendered the most important thing is the render, it is what will make or break the building, the budget should be considered carefully and set aside for the best product you can afford plus a reputable applicator. so spending where it counts is in this area! unless you want a spanking new house to look like sh1te, also fixing a bad render job is never a good option and will cost more than doing it right first
 
plasterjfe said:
Might be a bit late to join the debate here but to add to your comments on "sooner spending the money where it counts" is something that is always on my mind as a render contractor, I always come across the usual, rendering done last - budget gone scenario etc or can we use sand and cement to keep the cost down etc.

In my opinion on a new build that is to be rendered the most important thing is the render, it is what will make or break the building, the budget should be considered carefully and set aside for the best product you can afford plus a reputable applicator. so spending where it counts is in this area! unless you want a spanking new house to look like sh1te, also fixing a bad render job is never a good option and will cost more than doing it right first
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Hi plasterjfe,

As I've explained in earlier posts, I'm not trying to reduce the price and compromise the quality of work, quite the oposite. It's just the price of materials. I've set aside a sufficient budget for the rendering. As a percentage, it will be the most expensive part of the build as it will include outside labour costs where as all other works have been materials only.

I'll ask you a question. Would you pay £15 for a pre-packed slice of cheese-on-toast in a supermarket knowing that cheese and bread for cheese-on-toast cost less than a pound. Or would you buy some cheese and some bread and make your own cheese-on-toast? You could even buy really good cheese and really good bread and have a better cheese-on-toast experience for less money!

Here's another one, would you like to be paid double if you are able to quarter the material costs? Same materials, same job.

It's the material costs I'm questioning, not the labour. How does sourcing the same materials for a 5th of the price compromise the works if they are the same materials? I can't see your reasoning.
 
Plasteringrooky said:
Sorry, here they are as links not HTML. Is there a way of editting posts?

http://www.porothermuk.co.uk

Clay Block, Walling System, Modern Wall Building Methods of Construction
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Use these blocks all the time in Spain but not with the thin coat bedding system we call them Termacillo they will take any kind of render but are crap for fixing to, frames neeed to be fixed with chemical hollow fixings or build in fixing blocks or the Spanish way smash out holes in the wall where the fixings are going and fix with plaster of paris.
 
lucius said:
Use these blocks all the time in Spain but not with the thin coat bedding system we call them Termacillo they will take any kind of render but are crap for fixing to, frames neeed to be fixed with chemical hollow fixings or build in fixing blocks or the Spanish way smash out holes in the wall where the fixings are going and fix with plaster of paris.
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I've been through the literature a little more and it even gives the mix and application specifications and for all render types mentioned before, Lime, S/c and Monocouche. I think I'm coming to my own conclusions that Monocouche, being French and probably developed for the more Mediterranean based building materials suite the clay brick construction. I’ve not heard of any failures here of the monocouche systems. I’ve not seen many shabby applications either. However, I imagine that, let’s just say, the boundaries maybe being pushed to suite other applications in other countries.

I’m in no rush so I’m going to have a bit of a think about what to do. I might even try rendering some small walls internally just to have a go. The outside is way too large for me to tackle so I’ll have to employ a company or someone who knows what they’re doing. Not a problem.

The blocks are odd to fix too but they do seem to insulate against the heat very well and keep internal temperatures very stable. I use things like drywall fixings that spread at the back. There are quite a few different types on the market now.

How long were you in Spain for Lucius? Where abouts?
 
Plasteringrooky said:
Hi plasterjfe,

As I've explained in earlier posts, I'm not trying to reduce the price and compromise the quality of work, quite the oposite. It's just the price of materials. I've set aside a sufficient budget for the rendering. As a percentage, it will be the most expensive part of the build as it will include outside labour costs where as all other works have been materials only.

I'll ask you a question. Would you pay £15 for a pre-packed slice of cheese-on-toast in a supermarket knowing that cheese and bread for cheese-on-toast cost less than a pound. Or would you buy some cheese and some bread and make your own cheese-on-toast? You could even buy really good cheese and really good bread and have a better cheese-on-toast experience for less money!

Here's another one, would you like to be paid double if you are able to quarter the material costs? Same materials, same job.

It's the material costs I'm questioning, not the labour. How does sourcing the same materials for a 5th of the price compromise the works if they are the same materials? I can't see your reasoning.
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my post maybe isnt clear enough

as long as the applicator is good thats fine. but I would recommend buying the best product you can afford, thats it. I have seen all sorts of renders and I know some of the modern renders are expensive but they look and can make the whole job look superb, stand out from the rest, this is my main point. I was not promoting paying a renderer top money because I am one in fact Labour is very very very cheap at the moment, so cheap it is worth seeking a good applicaor, this is my whole point, and 50% of the cost of the package will be your material.

Mats are expensive yes but at the mo a supply and fit option could work out very good value for you

Cheese aint really a good example either. try

you got spiked with a drug and you need an antidote to live, one is cheap but is only 80% succesful and could go wrong and kill you faster the other is more expensive but is garaunteed you live with a 100% success
 
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plasterjfe said:
P.S.

Keep yer fekin hair on coming on the forum avin a go, I aint having a go, I was offering advice
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I wasn't having a pop either and take the advice with thanks. I think you're right about product selection. I need to do a bit more research.

Also, I thought the cheese/toast senario worked well as rendering falling off a wall isn't goin to kill ya.

P.S What are Mats?
 
Mats = materials

I take my work seriously so its hard to compare to cheese on toast I prefer it to be more a life and death situation.

You might be better getting hold of a rep and asking them you want mats direct because you will do the work yourself, or, ring round all the stcokists and ask em if they have any coming up for use by dates cos they always sell that off cheap because they dont want it taking up space in their yards
 
plasterjfe said:
Mats = materials

I take my work seriously so its hard to compare to cheese on toast I prefer it to be more a life and death situation.

You might be better getting hold of a rep and asking them you want mats direct because you will do the work yourself, or, ring round all the stcokists and ask em if they have any coming up for use by dates cos they always sell that off cheap because they dont want it taking up space in their yards
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I imagine I'll end up with a supply & fit package as I'd rather have the assurance if things go wrong. Make sure the company has been around a good few years too.
 
Monocouche is used 90% of the time on these but as i said they will take any render, the failing i see generaly is crakling of mono on older buildings where renovating momo has been used and fully meshed it justcant take the movement also the general discolouring especialy if roadside i dont like working with it because of the timing issues in Spain you wil regularly see spreads scraping at 10pm.Was in inland Murcia for 5 years atill have house their.Didnt know labour prices were low in France.people i speak to tell me they are crying out for spreads.
 
We were asked to price a poroton block rendering job in Cork last year. I did a lot of research here on it but found no good finish on finished houses.. Cement plaster is out because those blocks must breath. . One guy tried a clay render that fell off. Another guy was happy with what he told me was a lime putty skim but it was a gypsum skim. I did not bother making him any the wiser.
I brought home a few blocks and tried different limes and mixes. We ruled out all the limes except """""""" and """""""". I had explained to the builder that we could not guarantee the work because we never did it before etc but we were confident that we could give a good finish with """"". The builder and the homeowner had a falling out (nothing to do with us) and as far as I know the house still is not rendered. I know this is no help to you other than I can private post the limes that definitely will not work. I have removed the names of the other brands for fear someone might think I am advertising.
 
lucius said:
Monocouche is used 90% of the time on these but as i said they will take any render, the failing i see generaly is crakling of mono on older buildings where renovating momo has been used and fully meshed it justcant take the movement also the general discolouring especialy if roadside i dont like working with it because of the timing issues in Spain you wil regularly see spreads scraping at 10pm.Was in inland Murcia for 5 years atill have house their.Didnt know labour prices were low in France.people i speak to tell me they are crying out for spreads.
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Prices for renderers as far as I can see are not low here, but they are not expensive either. I think the recent slowing of British customers has brought prices to their natural/usual levels, hence why I'm not to worried about paying for the rending as a package.

I imagine that the working temperatures in Murcia are quite a bit higher than here, also a much longer summer season. I was looking at having the rendering done around October/November time, failing that, next March/April. Temperatures are around the 20degsC mark at that time of year with a bit of cloud cover. I'll definately stay away from mid summer season when it can reach into the 40's.

Many thanks for your advice Lucius. It's been really helpful.
 
brendankelly said:
We were asked to price a poroton block rendering job in Cork last year. I did a lot of research here on it but found no good finish on finished houses.. Cement plaster is out because those blocks must breath. . One guy tried a clay render that fell off. Another guy was happy with what he told me was a lime putty skim but it was a gypsum skim. I did not bother making him any the wiser.
I brought home a few blocks and tried different limes and mixes. We ruled out all the limes except """""""" and """""""". I had explained to the builder that we could not guarantee the work because we never did it before etc but we were confident that we could give a good finish with """"". The builder and the homeowner had a falling out (nothing to do with us) and as far as I know the house still is not rendered. I know this is no help to you other than I can private post the limes that definitely will not work. I have removed the names of the other brands for fear someone might think I am advertising.
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I think I'm going to try the same for some small interior areas, different local lime render mixes and see how they take. The bigger areas I'll dot-n-dab plasterboard as I think the mixture of the two textures will work nicley inside.

Many thanks for your help Brendan, it's very much appreciated.
 
Interesting, I would of thought with all the coloured render going on over there and the number of people using machines that the labour would be cheaper than over here
 
brendankelly said:
We were asked to price a poroton block rendering job in Cork last year. I did a lot of research here on it but found no good finish on finished houses.. Cement plaster is out because those blocks must breath. . One guy tried a clay render that fell off. Another guy was happy with what he told me was a lime putty skim but it was a gypsum skim. I did not bother making him any the wiser.
I brought home a few blocks and tried different limes and mixes. We ruled out all the limes except """""""" and """""""". I had explained to the builder that we could not guarantee the work because we never did it before etc but we were confident that we could give a good finish with """"". The builder and the homeowner had a falling out (nothing to do with us) and as far as I know the house still is not rendered. I know this is no help to you other than I can private post the limes that definitely will not work. I have removed the names of the other brands for fear someone might think I am advertising.
Click to expand...
Sand and cement is fine on these blocks Brendan i wasnt aware that they had to breath as an old lime building should its just a clay block same as brick. Nothing new about them either they were used for internal skins up to the late 60s in the U.K. just before my time and were called terracotta pots and always sand and cement floated and syraphite.They are used extensively in West Australia where i laid many in the early 80s again all finished in S&C.Ime very dubious about the U values claimed for these blocks and have metalled, insulated and boarded a few built from 300mm thick block cos they were just to cold i would always go for cavity with insulation rather than solid block.
 
can picture it the plumbers just walked in "no no its not what it looks like.......see that brush well i just accidently tripped over it and i tried to break my fall and ended up pulling brendans pants down then my mouth accidently fell onto his cock"
 
spunky said:
who knows brendan you might end up doing the work for plasteringrooky
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Well Spunky. I am a grandfather with 4 rendering jobs, 1 guetex inside plastering job, and just got a hemp/lime insulation inside job to do this summer. The only reason I am working is to teach the father of my grand daughter lime plastering. We also have a small house to build for a friend so only the promise of plenty of wine, women, and Viagra would temp me to travel outside my comfort zone.

As for your other post. While I do not know its implications I do however know that there would be a collision between my knee and your chin before mouth reached cock.
 
lucius said:
Sand and cement is fine on these blocks Brendan i wasnt aware that they had to breath as an old lime building should its just a clay block same as brick. Nothing new about them either they were used for internal skins up to the late 60s in the U.K. just before my time and were called terracotta pots and always sand and cement floated and syraphite.They are used extensively in West Australia where i laid many in the early 80s again all finished in S&C.Ime very dubious about the U values claimed for these blocks and have metalled, insulated and boarded a few built from 300mm thick block cos they were just to cold i would always go for cavity with insulation rather than solid block.
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The guy that owned the house was worried about cold bridging etc etc and wanted lime plaster. He had a computer on his phone and was the type of guy that would try to take your trowel to show you how to do it (if you know the type). I get paid from the neck down and only I do a lot of work for the builder I would not entertain him.
 
lucius said:
Sand and cement is fine on these blocks Brendan i wasnt aware that they had to breath as an old lime building should its just a clay block same as brick. Nothing new about them either they were used for internal skins up to the late 60s in the U.K. just before my time and were called terracotta pots and always sand and cement floated and syraphite.They are used extensively in West Australia where i laid many in the early 80s again all finished in S&C.Ime very dubious about the U values claimed for these blocks and have metalled, insulated and boarded a few built from 300mm thick block cos they were just to cold i would always go for cavity with insulation rather than solid block.
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I'm not totally convinced by the claimed 'U' values either that's why I went for the 50R (500mm thick). Out here it's not so much the winter insulation more the summer insulation from the direct sunlight. They stood up well during last years warm season, you just have to be mindfull of too many air changes.
 
spunky said:
can picture it the plumbers just walked in "no no its not what it looks like.......see that brush well i just accidently tripped over it and i tried to break my fall and ended up pulling brendans pants down then my mouth accidently fell onto his cock"
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Odd post coming from someone called spunky.
 
same as here but we still seem to be pricing low, construction has double dipped back into recession in this country during the first quarter its economy has shrunk by 4.7% which is big if you aint sure about economic figures. thanks to Tom and Jerry in number 10.

france does have slightly higher tax so i beleieve but I dont know how much% more
 
plasterjfe said:
same as here but we still seem to be pricing low, construction has double dipped back into recession in this country during the first quarter its economy has shrunk by 4.7% which is big if you aint sure about economic figures. thanks to Tom and Jerry in number 10.

france does have slightly higher tax so i beleieve but I dont know how much% more
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The companies here pay quite a lot for their indemnity insurance as I believe it covers a compulsory 10 year guarantee on all works.

I've been in France for 2 years on-and-off getting this house out the ground so I still keep up with what's going on in the uk. I only dissolved the company earlier this year, although it's not been trading for a couple of years. Just got fed up with the paperwork even though non trading. I think the economic problems started a long time ago. Problem is it's a big ship to turn round now, still, at least they’re talking about the right things, like apprenticeships and not every tom, dick, harry going to Uni.
 
Hi Brendan
Been trying to send you a private message but unable to. Would you send me a private message on ( limes that definitely will not work.)
cheers Henry
 
Gibbo said:
what about putting an insulated system on them
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They really don't need it. When I said I was not convinced of the stated ‘U’ values, I’m never convinced by any manufactures of their thermal insulation figures as they are tested in labs and not on sites but I don’t think they are far short. They are quite a bit different from the hollow clay pots. The extrusions are much more fissured rather than big open extruded holes. The stated ‘U’ value for the R50’s is 0.26 which is pretty efficient. I'd rather put more money into the roof insulation which is getting 280mm as it is.
 
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