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Collo

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Hi all, new to the site, and reading mixed responses and posts across the board, whats your thoughts on the emerging EWI industry and perceived rates for silicone topcoats and dashed finishes, using Wetherby's, Weber, Alumasc phenolic and EPS systems.

What would you be looking at for the following as an all inclusive rate, this isn't a cheap is best question as we all know you get what you pay for, and do you think the potential for skills retraining at no cost would be beneficial to the plastering industry to facilitate the current upturn in the industry?

Your constructive thoughts would be greatly appreciated

What would you expect a gang to get away in meterage for the the week based on the following and how much would be a a fair labour only rate.


Base Rail inc window and verge trims and Board =

Topcoat and Mesh =

Dashed finish =

Silicone Finish =

Prices to be fully inclusive of any accomodation costs.

Look forward to the colourful responses no doubt

Collo
 
Just trying to gauge peoples opinions at the moment, when i read some of the posts there seemed to be some negativity around some the requests on offer, an idea of what people are looking for by way of rates so as to manage expectations, i do have quite a few EWI properties to get away in the next few months.
Collo
 
Collo is above board received an email from him today :)

Play nice

Danny

PS Welcome to the forum
 
Who are you collo and why are you asking ? No disrespect but you're 5 posts in and fishing around trying to suss everyones prices
 
Hi Collo, at least tell us where you are based if not what company you work for.

My guess is you want to know where your costs are regarding potential green deal projects should you need to hire contractors to install the EWI systems right ?

dont worry about saying - people have to do their research

The costs being banded about are low, lower than the rates we have been used to on big area buildings such as hotels/hospitals etc - you will not turn a crust on lower rates on smaller areas such as terrace housing and semi detached property. simple. The skilled tradesmen will turn away from the industry if this new wave reduces the wage to a mediocre income.

The industry of EWI is not emerging, maybe about to grow but we have been fitting such systems in this country for decades.

you wont get an honest answer on here mate regarding prices, people are struggling to pay their mortages in this industry right now and their cards are well and truly closed to the chest - and rightly so.

not many will price you on sill and soffit profiles either - they will expect joiner to pop round on day work to fit those
 
I think thats where the issue lies gents, most of you have been used to the commercial work for large construction companies, and as the construction industry is on its knees, you have and continue to work and get minimal return for great effort.

How many out there have seen rates hacked, not been paid and a return to the bad old days of subby bashing the MC wins the work at a loss or 0 margin on the back of raping there supply chain and turning a profit.
While appreciate this stuff has been fitted for decades it has been somewhat of a cottage industry.

The number we are talking about are thousands and thousands of properties per annum where expectations are that the skills set of the installer is a one stop shop, hence the question regarding training.

There are project across the length and breadth of the country at the moment being delivered by a small group of by and large run of the mill installers who are stretching themselves to thinly.

And i beleive that with the right input and training this industry can re-invent itself whereby demand is such that rates are sufficient to earn a good living and the quality of the installer end product will dictate the return.

For the installation of the above current rates stand at around £25.00 per sq mtr with an expectation that a team of 4 would install around 180 mtr sq per week on a labour only basis, the caveat is that usually this is to a company or group that can deliver 10 properties per week, for smaller gangs of 4 working for another company the rates are around £17-£19 per sq mtr.

Is £800 a week decent money these for a quality job delivered ontime reasonable?

Collo
 
Collo said:
I think thats where the issue lies gents, most of you have been used to the commercial work for large construction companies, and as the construction industry is on its knees, you have and continue to work and get minimal return for great effort.

How many out there have seen rates hacked, not been paid and a return to the bad old days of subby bashing the MC wins the work at a loss or 0 margin on the back of raping there supply chain and turning a profit.
While appreciate this stuff has been fitted for decades it has been somewhat of a cottage industry.

The number we are talking about are thousands and thousands of properties per annum where expectations are that the skills set of the installer is a one stop shop, hence the question regarding training.

There are project across the length and breadth of the country at the moment being delivered by a small group of by and large run of the mill installers who are stretching themselves to thinly.

And i beleive that with the right input and training this industry can re-invent itself whereby demand is such that rates are sufficient to earn a good living and the quality of the installer end product will dictate the return.

For the installation of the above current rates stand at around £25.00 per sq mtr with an expectation that a team of 4 would install around 180 mtr sq per week on a labour only basis, the caveat is that usually this is to a company or group that can deliver 10 properties per week, for smaller gangs of 4 working for another company the rates are around £17-£19 per sq mtr.

Is £800 a week decent money these for a quality job delivered ontime reasonable?

Collo
Click to expand...

i dont know where you are coming from or whos informing you but your off the mark.

if your aiming at the domestic market, there isnt demand there due to financial reasons.
where are you geting 1000s and 1000s of properties from?

the green deal is just the goverment plucking out figures from the air, until there are incentives there ie sufficent grants available or reductions in council taxes people are not going to do it, the average saving is around 400 a year on heating costs, and the average semi is around 10000 to complete which people are simply not going to pay on the whole.

I run a rendering outfit that carry out this type of work,i deal with large housing associations and even they are strugling to get the figures right in cases,

the figures you are quoting are simply wrong.

if you state who your are, and what your agenda is we can have a rational debate about it.
 
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plasterjfe said:
Hi Collo, at least tell us where you are based if not what company you work for.

My guess is you want to know where your costs are regarding potential green deal projects should you need to hire contractors to install the EWI systems right ?

dont worry about saying - people have to do their research

The costs being banded about are low, lower than the rates we have been used to on big area buildings such as hotels/hospitals etc - you will not turn a crust on lower rates on smaller areas such as terrace housing and semi detached property. simple. The skilled tradesmen will turn away from the industry if this new wave reduces the wage to a mediocre income.

The industry of EWI is not emerging, maybe about to grow but we have been fitting such systems in this country for decades.

you wont get an honest answer on here mate regarding prices, people are struggling to pay their mortages in this industry right now and their cards are well and truly closed to the chest - and rightly so.

not many will price you on sill and soffit profiles either - they will expect joiner to pop round on day work to fit those
Click to expand...

here lies the problem, because the rates are poor skilled tradesman arnt going to carry the work out because of low rates, and they are low rates because numptys are doing it, its a vicous circle.
 
Collo, just ask for rates and numbers of the lads willing to do it in certain areas, is that what you meant.
 
Fair Enough, all of the area's below have a minimum number of 250 Properties and many well in excess of 400 all of which are under contract adn are expected to be delivered by year end with more schemes ready for the new year, if the rates i stated above are poor then let me know.

Alternatively i'll just post the requirements as and when, just thought reading some of these posts that the quality trades people might want some input or discussion on whats in the pipeline.

As for numbers being pie in the sky and the figures been wrong, there is an awful lot of investment and positioning being undertaken to facilitate the obligated parties being able to deliver carbon savings when the funding for loft and cavity reduces significantly later this year, by some rather large household names, i think someone has already mentioned Tesco.
With 6 million HTT properties requiring external wall i think its more question of when rather than if.
As far as RSL's struggling to get the investment, alot of the scheme below also include private schemes from multiple funding sources.
I suppose its whether you take a cynical view due to past experience or decide that maybe someone for a change just maybe talking a little sense.


Anyone interested please feel free to inbox me and i will discuss on a business to business basis.


North East
Liverpool
Swansea
Pontypool
Coventry
Birmingham
South West (Muliple Sites)
Leicester
Rotherham

Collo
 
I can either see it all falling to pieces and all hype or rates going through the roof from lack of labour, personally I think 800 quid a week on externals flat out is poor 1 day off from the rain and you'd wish you were inside skimming especially if there's apparently going to be a huge demand .....sounds s**t tbh lol

Will be interesting to see how it all pans out and to see if people can keep on top of the quality of work
 
Appreciate the input cheers, i honestly didn't think 800 a week was a bad number, not sure 7-8 sq mtrs a day per man is flat out, but if its poor then fair comment.
 
Sure you'll soon find out about prices if you're a contractor you'll either have pages full of names or the dreaded loads of work and no one available
 
These are rates we are paying at the moment, i think re-training is the key reading the posts but i think trying to stay away from the boom and bust mentatlity, having a steady stream of work at a decent rate was my thought, maybe not to everyones liking though.
 
Collo said:
Fair Enough, all of the area's below have a minimum number of 250 Properties and many well in excess of 400 all of which are under contract adn are expected to be delivered by year end with more schemes ready for the new year, if the rates i stated above are poor then let me know.

Alternatively i'll just post the requirements as and when, just thought reading some of these posts that the quality trades people might want some input or discussion on whats in the pipeline.

As for numbers being pie in the sky and the figures been wrong, there is an awful lot of investment and positioning being undertaken to facilitate the obligated parties being able to deliver carbon savings when the funding for loft and cavity reduces significantly later this year, by some rather large household names, i think someone has already mentioned Tesco.
With 6 million HTT properties requiring external wall i think its more question of when rather than if.
As far as RSL's struggling to get the investment, alot of the scheme below also include private schemes from multiple funding sources.
I suppose its whether you take a cynical view due to past experience or decide that maybe someone for a change just maybe talking a little sense.


Anyone interested please feel free to inbox me and i will discuss on a business to business basis.


North East
Liverpool
Swansea
Pontypool
Coventry
Birmingham
South West (Muliple Sites)
Leicester
Rotherham

Collo
Click to expand...

i mentioned tesco in a previous post,

im speaking from experience as weve been carrying out this type of work for a few years now, and the issue has always been lack of funds for projects through schemes such as the green deal see my previous posts on here about it.

but id be happy to discuss it with you no worries, as would jfe id imagine
 
Collo said:
These are rates we are paying at the moment, i think re-training is the key reading the posts but i think trying to stay away from the boom and bust mentatlity, having a steady stream of work at a decent rate was my thought, maybe not to everyones liking though.
Click to expand...

who are you anyhow?

nobody can pm you as it stands anyhow, as youve not been on here long enough, ask Dan to sort it for you.
 
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Hi Collo
Im getting geared up ready for this so called boom... opening a traing centre in uckfield soon External Insulation Training Services but have to charge for the training, the NVQ awarding bodies grants are being cut in half soon and no news on any training grants to companies yet other than the £300 cash back per trainee per NVQII Have you got your PAS2030 sorted out yer as come october you wont be able to bid for the new work its all about jumping through hoops just to get in
As for prices i know when the grants were out in ireland they were getting €105 per m2 for 50 - 60mm eps but thats all come to an end now i think, i know a firm in the midlands that charge between £75 and £100 per m2 and they are getting the work, i will subby off you in north east but PM me about rates a my guys have NVQII's in external insuation
 
Render Systems said:
Hi Collo
Im getting geared up ready for this so called boom... opening a traing centre in uckfield soon External Insulation Training Services but have to charge for the training, the NVQ awarding bodies grants are being cut in half soon and no news on any training grants to companies yet other than the £300 cash back per trainee per NVQII Have you got your PAS2030 sorted out yer as come october you wont be able to bid for the new work its all about jumping through hoops just to get in
As for prices i know when the grants were out in ireland they were getting €105 per m2 for 50 - 60mm eps but thats all come to an end now i think, i know a firm in the midlands that charge between £75 and £100 per m2 and they are getting the work, i will subby off you in north east but PM me about rates a my guys have NVQII's in external insuation
Click to expand...

just get in touch with the guy, dont be discussing rates on an open forum.
 
Do the projects that you have mentioned require full project delivery(prelims,enabling/reinstatement,ewi,scaff etc) or just labour only requirements?

Most of the projects I am aware of and have been involved with under CERT/CESP require a full and complete project delivery on a supply and fit basis - is this your aim/requirement?

PM me to discuss if you want.
 
Been reading this post with interest, I don,t believe there will be much of a market in the private sector however I can see councils being given grants for EWI for ther social housing. That will mean the likes of tesco tendering for the work with big promises, training of workers and low prices. Workers will get their NVQ on EWI at the minimum wage further fragmenting our industry. Along with tapers & jointers and plasterers who can only skim I feel we are nowdays looked at as a semi skilled profession. Discuss !
 
Capital spread said:
Been reading this post with interest, I don,t believe there will be much of a market in the private sector however I can see councils being given grants for EWI for ther social housing. That will mean the likes of tesco tendering for the work with big promises, training of workers and low prices. Workers will get their NVQ on EWI at the minimum wage further fragmenting our industry. Along with tapers & jointers and plasterers who can only skim I feel we are nowdays looked at as a semi skilled profession. Discuss !
Click to expand...

The private sector is where the bulk of the EWI market lies nowadays. Housing Associations/Groups are in the main no longer Council controlled bodies, but are private/public companies.

Councils now see transfer of their asset ownership to private bodies as more cost effective in their maintenance programme for their tenants, than keeping it in house.

With the huge amount of EWI required,and the lack of skilled labour to complete it, this will only increase labour value and increase labour rates - in my opinion.
 
Energy Company Obligation (ECO) / Local Authorities / Funds / Home (United Kingdom) - Energy Saving Trust a glimpse.

Not a plasterer no, but unless the industry sits up and takes notice as the very people that supply you are then de-skilling will take place to facilitate the number of people required to deliver, you already have a machine company on here touting a machine that can spray dash, a de-skilling element in its self.
Yes full CDM and site set up will be required, so you'll probably end up a sub-contractor unless you are a green deal provider which is unlikley.
Free to private homeowner schemes are already being delivered albeit in small pilot schemes to test the delivery mechanisms and carbon savings.
Like i posted previously, you can continue to say it wont happen and stand in the wings or think maybe just maybe that 20 or so multi billion pound companies are investing heavily because they love throwing money away in a recession.
And you guys might just have another outlet for your skills other than traditional construction oulets (and as an aside wouldn't the skills shortage to them drive your prices back up)?
Its not a get rich quick scheme and is there to offer sustainable longevity of work
And remember when it comes to people like Tesco, brand is everything, how long would any company last delivering dross for them, its not all about price it is an element as it is with everything but its about balance.
 
Imagine if it did go mental and all the semi skilled lads trained up specifically for the purpose are all floating around picking up ewi work when the boom disappears
 
i cant understand why you cant tell people who you are or what company you are from.
you would generate more intrest that way, lads arnt daft,there are people/firms that post upwork on here and more often than not nothing ever comes from it.
 
Owls, Due to the fact that there is a lot of commercial sensitivity to what we do and how we fund, we enter into NDA's before we commence talks and get all supplychain members to undertake PQQ's, once complete discussions can commence it also stops to much time wasting, if any company can take on 5 or more properties a week, to a high standard, then i would imagine what ive posted maybe of interest.
As far as nothing coming from it, the work is there it needs servicing, its not an excercise in cheapest guy gets it, theres a lot to go round and we have varying rates depending on quality and deliverables, including training facilities.

Collo
 
ok fair point.

A non disclosure agreement seems thorough.
5 properties a week is probably out of reach for most on here id imagine.
get in touch with us,see if we can do anything, depending on your schedual of works, as we have a fair bit on at present.
 
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22jasper said:
The private sector is where the bulk of the EWI market lies nowadays. Housing Associations/Groups are in the main no longer Council controlled bodies, but are private/public companies.


I stand corrected, when I said "councils being given grants" in my mind I grouped any social housing either private or local authority in the same bag, where as private meaning individual property owners.

Its good to get different opinions when you get older you tend to get very struck in your ways.

Thanks to 22jasper
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Would you need CSCS and NVQ2 on non PPQ's or is it just on NDA's.?

If it's anECO I could understand why CDM would be required.

And can Catholics join ?
 
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