Questions about Lime

Meirion Harries

New Member
Hello


I plan to strip off all the cement render at the back of my Victorian house. I will be removing the existing render myself but I then would like a tradesman to do the following:

1. Re-point the brick face in lime mortar where needed
2. Fixing wood wool boards in place as a thermal layer
3. Re-rendering the outside of the building in hydraulic lime

The area is between 35-40 square meters. One guy gave me a quote of £5200 for rendering and applying a lime wash with all materials - this doesn't include hacking off or the cost of the scaffolding. What's your thoughts on this quote? He has a very good reputation/reviews.

By the way I've decided now to finish the exterior in a breathable silicate masonry paint compatible with lime.

What's your thoughts on fitting the wool boards directly into masonry?

Do I need to purchase a seperate base coat/top coat or can 1 type of lime render be used for both?

What kind of mesh roll is best and do I need it if I am boarding out?

Regards

Meirion
 

basset

Active Member
If he has good reviews and reputation then go with him.
It's very hard for us to say how much it should cost as we haven't seen the property.
Or get a couple of other quotes from recommended tradesmen then compare, but don't be fooled if one is a lot cheaper than the other!
 

Meirion Harries

New Member
Hi Basset, thanks for you reply.

Its proving difficult to get quotes from tradesmen who deal with lime/dealt with it before!
I don't want to skimp on this job as this is the most important job I have to do on the house, its just that there's a hell of a lot more to be done once this has been done!

I still need a bit of advice, re the rest of my questions.

Cheers
 

vfr12

MOTORC*NT
What mortar is used for the bricks? You can repoint the bricks with lime , but if the mortar is not lime then is pointless . And then , if you are going to put boards over and render them with lime ...... maybe the pointing can be avoided . As for the quote it's hard to say if is ok, but if you have doubts is expensive, just imagine ending up with something like this. Paying twice is more expensive! See the second set of pictures.

http://www.plasterersforum.com/threads/lime-plaster-shrinkage.66271/
 

Meirion Harries

New Member
Hi vfr,

How would I find out what kind of mortar was used on the house? It was built 1900 so I'm guessing lime was more common back then?

Have you used these wood wool boards before?
These are the ones I was looking at:

https://www.lime.org.uk/products/bo...od-wool-boards/wood-wool-building-boards.html

I've never had a quote for this kind of work before. The quote was for lime render and lime wash but he said the price without the lime wash was £1000 cheaper.

So... I'm trying to work out how much he's charging per m2. How much does a bag of hydraulic lime cover for 2 coats at recommended thickness?
This website says 8m2 at 10mm:
http://www.limestuff.co.uk/pages/user-guides/coverage-for-our-limes.html

Sorry, a lot of questions but need to get it right

Cheers


What mortar is used for the bricks? You can repoint the bricks with lime , but if the mortar is not lime then is pointless . And then , if you are going to put boards over and render them with lime ...... maybe the pointing can be avoided . As for the quote it's hard to say if is ok, but if you have doubts is expensive, just imagine ending up with something like this. Paying twice is more expensive! See the second set of pictures.

http://www.plasterersforum.com/threads/lime-plaster-shrinkage.66271/
 

vfr12

MOTORC*NT
Is there a joke coming on I wonder... 'knows the price of everything but the value of nothing' ;)
Ha ha pretty much I was heading in that direction, but your sense of humour will soften my response. I like people who can make jokes over themselves and stay cool;)
Price is the price! I doubt you will let someone else to tell you how to trade and how much is too much! You take it or leave it ,simple as that. At the end of the day is a decision you have to make. Maybe do one day course and give it a go, it's not a rocket science to put lime on the wall. You can google it and there are a lots of videos how is done, but they won't teach experience! If you want something cheaper look for other options.
Call someone to see if the mortar used to build the house is lime. Boards are ok. Pointing is .....pointless. Don't trust the info about m2 coverage.You have got your answers. Good luck and remember:
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetiness of low price is forgotten
:birra:
 

Meirion Harries

New Member
Thank you very much vfr!

Don't want cheaper because that would cause more problems in the long run. A lot of the inside plaster will need to be removed due to penetrative damp caused by cement render so its lime or nothing :)

By the way any recommendations for brands of hydraulic lime?

Cheers
 

Dropsalot

Private Member
Thank you very much vfr!

Don't want cheaper because that would cause more problems in the long run. A lot of the inside plaster will need to be removed due to penetrative damp caused by cement render so its lime or nothing :)

By the way any recommendations for brands of hydraulic lime?

Cheers
Anglia Lime will help you out. They might be able to recommend a tradesman for you. Your welcome.
 

FreeD

Private Member
Hello


I plan to strip off all the cement render at the back of my Victorian house. I will be removing the existing render myself but I then would like a tradesman to do the following:

1. Re-point the brick face in lime mortar where needed
2. Fixing wood wool boards in place as a thermal layer
3. Re-rendering the outside of the building in hydraulic lime

The area is between 35-40 square meters. One guy gave me a quote of £5200 for rendering and applying a lime wash with all materials - this doesn't include hacking off or the cost of the scaffolding. What's your thoughts on this quote? He has a very good reputation/reviews.

By the way I've decided now to finish the exterior in a breathable silicate masonry paint compatible with lime.

What's your thoughts on fitting the wool boards directly into masonry?

Do I need to purchase a seperate base coat/top coat or can 1 type of lime render be used for both?

What kind of mesh roll is best and do I need it if I am boarding out?

Regards

Meirion

Impossible to give answer on price without seeing job...

Have you considered a breathable mineral paint from Keim? Unless you are set on the washed look, the Keim mineral paints are excellent, and you probably won't have to paint again for 20 years, costly though.
 

Rigsby

TPF Special Forces
I spoke to the sales rep for these wood wool slabs and lime render on top.

Maybe go back to the slab manufacturer and get a spec and lime render suppliers they recomend.

What part of the Country are you from?

There is a Company in Dewsbury that can help you if you are up this way.

Another thought?

Speak to Alexandria from Bauwer UK, he can offer you a very breathable insulated render system.

Not slabs but solid-ish render very lightweight with perlite as an insulant.

I am not surprised at the price. What you are wanting isn't going to be cheap.
 

Dropsalot

Private Member
@Meirion Harries Whats your thoughts on his Quote ? do you think hes charging you to much ? Why do you feel the need to try and work out what hes charging per m2 ?
Perhaps to calculate earnings? This comes up all the time. On another thread @clemo is on £500/day and off home early..
Common sense dictates that the op gets a couple of prices for the spec desired and vets the tradesman, trying to work out how he has priced is a waste of time, so long as all aspects of the spec have been addressed. IMO.
 

User________removed

Private Member
Perhaps to calculate earnings? This comes up all the time. On another thread @clemo is on £500/day and off home early..
Common sense dictates that the op gets a couple of prices for the spec desired and vets the tradesman, trying to work out how he has priced is a waste of time, so long as all aspects of the spec have been addressed. IMO.

I don't understand why they need to calculate his earnings, its none of their business what he earns, they've been given a quote and either like it or they don't. I agree its a complete waste of time trying to work it out especially trying to work out what the materials are then his m2 rate, what about his over heads and profit ?

To quote "I don't want to skimp on this job as this is the most important job I have to do on the house, its just that there's a hell of a lot more to be done once this has been done!"
It might just be me but the quote above suggests that They know its an important job and that it needs to be done to the highest standard, however they're conscious that theres other work to be done and are trying to find away of getting it all done on the budget that they have, So come on here to get professional advice then go back to the guy whos quoted and try and cut a deal so that they can get more work done all at the expense of the tradesman.

Classic example of "thats a bit expensive" when the reality is they haven't got enough money to do it.
 

Mkk

New Member
I don't understand why they need to calculate his earnings, its none of their business what he earns, they've been given a quote and either like it or they don't.
Sorry but that's an absurd thing to say. A lot of tradesmen price fairly for skilled labour, but a lot more will price whatever they can get away with after sizing up the customer. So as a customer you absolutely SHOULD estimate the guy's daily rate (after materials & variable expenses), as that's the only way you'll know if he's charging a reasonable price or taking you to the cleaner.

To say "it's none of their business" what the customers spends THEIR OWN MONEY on is downright bizarre. Of course its their bloody business & they're fools if they don't scrutinise costings with a fine tooth comb.
 

Nicm

Well-Known Member
Sorry but that's an absurd thing to say. A lot of tradesmen price fairly for skilled labour, but a lot more will price whatever they can get away with after sizing up the customer. So as a customer you absolutely SHOULD estimate the guy's daily rate (after materials & variable expenses), as that's the only way you'll know if he's charging a reasonable price or taking you to the cleaner.

To say "it's none of their business" what the customers spends THEIR OWN MONEY on is downright bizarre. Of course its their bloody business & they're fools if they don't scrutinise costings with a fine tooth comb.
No such thing as a daily rate if your pricing a job.You price It what it’s worth to you.If you get it then it’s your own buiness how quick it’s earned once the job is done well.
 

Mkk

New Member
No such thing as a daily rate if your pricing a job.You price It what it’s worth to you.If you get it then it’s your own buiness how quick it’s earned once the job is done well.
You can price what it's worth to you, by all means. And the customer will price what it's worth to them. Some customers are naive but many are not, and when they see you're asking for a £500 per person day rate (after materials and costs) they'll tell you to jog on! That's how the free market works - or should work.

What helps unscrupulous traders is the fact that some customers are intimidated by the thought of manual jobs and fearful of causing damage to their property, so they'll pay over the fair market price. More fool them, but don't kid yourself that they're not being taken advantage of.
 
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FreeD

Private Member
Sorry but that's an absurd thing to say. A lot of tradesmen price fairly for skilled labour, but a lot more will price whatever they can get away with after sizing up the customer. So as a customer you absolutely SHOULD estimate the guy's daily rate (after materials & variable expenses), as that's the only way you'll know if he's charging a reasonable price or taking you to the cleaner.

To say "it's none of their business" what the customers spends THEIR OWN MONEY on is downright bizarre. Of course its their bloody business & they're fools if they don't scrutinise costings with a fine tooth comb.

Daily rate is a load of b*llocks everyone should just give a price of what they want for the job. For example a ceiling patch...some people charge £200 including labour and materials...but from my experience most customer will go for a price around £460. Always price prime when you are there and over estimate to see reaction
 

Tinytom

Well-Known Member
You can price what it's worth to you, by all means. And the customer will price what it's worth to them. Some customers are naive but many are not, and when they see you're asking for a £500 per person day rate (after materials and costs) they'll tell you to jog on! That's how the free market works - or should work.

What helps unscrupulous traders is the fact that some customers are intimidated by the thought of manual jobs and fearful of causing damage to their property, so they'll pay over the fair market price. More fool them, but don't kid yourself that they're not being taken advantage of.
Unscrupulous traders are the ones at £80 a day without the necessary skills to work on a paying customers house, that make a mess of the job and turn their phone off.
the LTD companies charging upwards of £500 a day are more geared up for commercial work where you need office staff, contracts managers, memberships to different schemes, sage, payroll, multiple vans, a yard, waste disposal licence. The list is endless. You my friend haven’t got a f**k**g clue
 

tapit

Well-Known Member
Sorry but that's an absurd thing to say. A lot of tradesmen price fairly for skilled labour, but a lot more will price whatever they can get away with after sizing up the customer. So as a customer you absolutely SHOULD estimate the guy's daily rate (after materials & variable expenses), as that's the only way you'll know if he's charging a reasonable price or taking you to the cleaner.

To say "it's none of their business" what the customers spends THEIR OWN MONEY on is downright bizarre. Of course its their bloody business & they're fools if they don't scrutinise costings with a fine tooth comb.
Your quoting prices from 2017 mate?
 

Brimstone

Well-Known Member
Sorry but that's an absurd thing to say. A lot of tradesmen price fairly for skilled labour, but a lot more will price whatever they can get away with after sizing up the customer. So as a customer you absolutely SHOULD estimate the guy's daily rate (after materials & variable expenses), as that's the only way you'll know if he's charging a reasonable price or taking you to the cleaner.

To say "it's none of their business" what the customers spends THEIR OWN MONEY on is downright bizarre. Of course its their bloody business & they're fools if they don't scrutinise costings with a fine tooth comb.
Sorry Mkk but you are wrong and are maybe under-pricing your own work by being too nice about it. You are pricing a job based on what you think is a reasonable day rate and to you £500 is not reasonable. Why? Because you have a limited expectation of income based on it being a "trade" and therefore only worth X - based on what employers tell you/everybody they will pay.

If self employed you get whatever you can based on the market factors, not on what you think is reasonable.

The whole idea of being self employed is that you want a better income/lifestyle than being a salaried trade, and you are willing to take a risk to do so. You factor in those risks, your rate is not a rate, it is a price take it or leave it with maybe a little dickering margin.
One of those risks is that you win some and lose some but try not to price yourself out of the market and local demand for your type of service.
You ignore the runts that Tinytom described, don't rush to the bottom, you cannot win.
 
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