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markrryan

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Hello all,

I was hoping that you experienced plasters would be able to offer an opinion on the following:

I’m currently involved in a small claim against a customer regarding money I’m owed for plumbing work carried out at his home. He in turn has made a counter claim in regards to a leak he is saying is my fault. Plumbing aside the customer reports damage to his kitchen ceiling, kitchen wall and dining room wall (which is the other side of the kitchen wall, a single skin of brick).

He has provided me with photographic evidence of the leak as well as damage this has caused. Below are some of the images he has sent (I have three others that show little else, I can always provide links to these, unfortunately I've met my file upload limit on here). I also have included a copy of the invoice that the customer has in relation to remedial work with regards to the plastering and decorating. Details of the tradesmen involved have been blacked out for obvious reasons.

I’d really appreciate any comments you have with regards to the plastering. Obviously I understand that you may not be able to comment on decorating but would ask you whether it is common for a decorator to have to use lining paper on a freshly skimmed wall – the customer was having anaglypta papered on the dining room side of the wall.

I don’t have exact details of the size of the kitchen but would say that 20m[SUP]2[/SUP] would be generous. The house was probably built between 1920 and 1940, original lathe and plaster ceiling has been boarded and skimmed in the last month or so.

I’m not sure why the plasterer needed to take down the original ceiling, is there any way of checking whether this remains above the current ceiling (all I can think of is removing the light fitting and checking whether there are signs of the original lathe above)?


Yours,

Mark

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Hi Mark ,
I take it that you never got to return to site to view or fix the leak, for insurance purposes ,its basically all works that is required to return it to the original state, lining paper can be part of this even on new plasterwork.I see no mention of the plastering costs on the decorators invoice, some of the links did not work for me. An original ceiling would need to be taken down if a large percentage (40/%) or more was damaged, the old ceiling may have been lathing plaster and if it gets wet it is not always repairable , then again it was a perfect opportunity for the client to get a new ceiling and to have his room done to perfection. When a relationship breaks down like this it is difficult to solve, you need to weigh up what is owed to you and what the client is claiming for, try to have a friendly chat or a meeting on site, best of luck
 
Hard to comment with no pics...

When you are talking about water damage if its has been left for a period of time then the ceiling along with the new boards will sag and need replacing, it's good practice to replace the whole ceiling as the damp will spread and affect the integrity of the boards ie will not last as long as they should.


Whenever I have seen it happen it usually leaks through the light fitting first, but will have spread through a lot of the ceiling.


All you can do is replace where needed and allow to dry from both sides ie floor board up from upstairs and ceiling off downstairs. Leave for a couple of days, then carry out the repair work.


As for lining paper over new skim, you shouldn't need it providing the skim is to a good standard.
 
Can't see any of your attached pics mate?? Some times decorators will put lining paper on a perfectly good recently plasterd wall, depending on what finish paper is goin on. Think it's to do with suction of paste on the new plaster. Some just size the wall with paste. Personal preference I guess? As for the ceiling was it priced for takin down the existin? Or overboard ?
 
Thanks John,

Sorry to hear the links aren't working, they are for me so not sure what I can do to show them (any advice gladly accepted). I'm not sure what images you've seen as this would give you a good idea of the damage involved. I can always provide you with a dropbox url and this might give you access to the missing images.

To give you an idea my bill for work is £327, the defendant wants £1342.

I'm not wanting to try and bias opinion in any way, just show facts.

Mark
 
From the sounds of it the client is a **** and is trying to hold you responsible for someone going through a pipe...:RpS_lol:
 
Guys,

Sorry not sure why the images aren't viewable. I'll give links on dropbox, hopefully you'll be able to view them.

Mark
 
markrryan said:
Thanks John,

Sorry to hear the links aren't working, they are for me so not sure what I can do to show them (any advice gladly accepted). I'm not sure what images you've seen as this would give you a good idea of the damage involved. I can always provide you with a dropbox url and this might give you access to the missing images.

To give you an idea my bill for work is £327, the defendant wants £1342.

I'm not wanting to try and bias opinion in any way, just show facts.

Mark
Click to expand...

photobucket is preferred on this site :)
 
markrryan said:
Thanks John,

Sorry to hear the links aren't working, they are for me so not sure what I can do to show them (any advice gladly accepted). I'm not sure what images you've seen as this would give you a good idea of the damage involved. I can always provide you with a dropbox url and this might give you access to the missing images.

To give you an idea my bill for work is £327, the defendant wants £1342.

I'm not wanting to try and bias opinion in any way, just show facts.

Mark
Click to expand...
£1342 is a hefty amount ,where are you based or more to the point where was the job done, don't worry about the photos, so you are taking him to court, small claims I presume, what connection has the work done to the cause of the leak,is it new work that failed?or old work connected to the new work, who repaired the plumbing if not you? He can only claim reasonable costs,had he shown you the quotes beforehand, keep as much info as you can for the court..
 
the customer should have made a claim on your insurance.
i hope that you have some insurance as a leak can cause thousands of pounds worth of damage.
 
Plastering Quote is excessive even for London prices I'm sure John will agree. Insurance work does cost a lot but not that much!

estimate between £500-600 tops mats and labour 2-3 days
 
The plastering quote is reasonable enough if those works did actually need to be done . He is taking liberties re the decoration as his walls were old and tatty and needing doing any way ,the wood work should not have needed doing, but sadly so much of this is subjective, I do believe you have a case to argue especially re the decoration, are you accepting any fault here or do you believe the leak was caused by some other works, how long after you finished did the leak occur or was discovered,
ps sorry If I sound like your brief ha ha,
 
From what i can see the ceiling could have been patched, taking down the whole ceiling is a bit of overkill although the pics don't show how bad rest of ceiling was.
 
I certainly do have public liabilty, never used it but it's in place.

This is what happens in bullet points.

Customer accepts my estimate.
Start work, remove old suite and tiles
Walls need plastering, I'd informed the customer before hand, they said they didn't feel it was needed.
I amend the pipework, waiting for them to make final choices for a radiator before pipework finished.
Meant to finish pipework but had an accident in my van a week earlier, have to pick it up from garage (customer aware of accident).
Phone customer and explain that insted of Friday I'll be there on Monday. This is agreed, job not held up as tiler is in on the Tuesday.
Get a call from the husband on Friday night (9pm) asking why I hadn't been there. Explain situation, told I must be there on Monday.
He calls 10 minutes later daying he's got someone else, I'm effectively sacked with job left halfway carried out.
New plumber come in on a Sunday and does work I was meant to do on the following day, my work was to test, clip and brossbond pipework, re-lay floorboards and fit bath.
Plumber fits bathroom after tiling.
Customer has leak about a month later, he makes no attempt to contact me so I know nothing of it.
After invoicing and sending a reminder I sue for money owed. He counter sues claiming I'm at fault.

That's it in a nut shell.

Mark
 
Did the leak originate from the work that you did or was it from the work of the other plumber?
 
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markrryan said:
I certainly do have public liabilty, never used it but it's in place.

This is what happens in bullet points.

Customer accepts my estimate.
Start work, remove old suite and tiles
Walls need plastering, I'd informed the customer before hand, they said they didn't feel it was needed.
I amend the pipework, waiting for them to make final choices for a radiator before pipework finished.
Meant to finish pipework but had an accident in my van a week earlier, have to pick it up from garage (customer aware of accident).
Phone customer and explain that insted of Friday I'll be there on Monday. This is agreed, job not held up as tiler is in on the Tuesday.
Get a call from the husband on Friday night (9pm) asking why I hadn't been there. Explain situation, told I must be there on Monday.
He calls 10 minutes later daying he's got someone else, I'm effectively sacked with job left halfway carried out.
New plumber come in on a Sunday and does work I was meant to do on the following day, my work was to test, clip and brossbond pipework, re-lay floorboards and fit bath.
Plumber fits bathroom after tiling.
Customer has leak about a month later, he makes no attempt to contact me so I know nothing of it.
After invoicing and sending a reminder I sue for money owed. He counter sues claiming I'm at fault.

That's it in a nut shell.

Mark
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Jeez!! Sounds like a fcker!! Haven't been through anything like this myself but from my 0 legal experience they are taking liberties and would like to think that it should fall in your favour.

some people hey bud!
 
markrryan said:
I certainly do have public liabilty, never used it but it's in place.

This is what happens in bullet points.

Customer accepts my estimate.
Start work, remove old suite and tiles
Walls need plastering, I'd informed the customer before hand, they said they didn't feel it was needed.
I amend the pipework, waiting for them to make final choices for a radiator before pipework finished.
Meant to finish pipework but had an accident in my van a week earlier, have to pick it up from garage (customer aware of accident).
Phone customer and explain that insted of Friday I'll be there on Monday. This is agreed, job not held up as tiler is in on the Tuesday.
Get a call from the husband on Friday night (9pm) asking why I hadn't been there. Explain situation, told I must be there on Monday.
He calls 10 minutes later daying he's got someone else, I'm effectively sacked with job left halfway carried out.
New plumber come in on a Sunday and does work I was meant to do on the following day, my work was to test, clip and brossbond pipework, re-lay floorboards and fit bath.
Plumber fits bathroom after tiling.
Customer has leak about a month later, he makes no attempt to contact me so I know nothing of it.
After invoicing and sending a reminder I sue for money owed. He counter sues claiming I'm at fault.

That's it in a nut shell.

Mark
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He has a very messy case with two plumbers involved ,how can he positively blame you, with the time span also and the fact that he left it so long to blame you. I think he would be ridiculed in court. Can you get the other plumbers details and a copy of his original invoice, I would be fairly positive if I were you but the law is very peculiar, keep it straight and uncomplicated and my money is on you winning or at least not losing...
 
If he sacked you off the job and didn't pay you, then gets another plumber to finish and then it leaks,the other plumber who was on the job, is on the frontfoot to defend himself and blame you cause you were not there! If he ain't paid you for the work you done I would say he's fecked!!! But I ain't a lawyer so what do I know? Would be interesting to see how it pans out? Good luck
 
OK this is third time lucky, I keep trying to submit a reply but am pressing the wrong button....

I was effectively sacked for not turning up (although I'd been flexible when he found out he needed to have plastering in the bathroom). The pipework installations weren't finished as the customer was waiting for a radiator which was needed before the final pipework was installed (I test all pipework together as it can be a lengthy process). I believe I can provide ample proof that testing is something I carry out.

Obviously a new plumber comes in and as the customer never asked what was in need of doing he doesn't inform the new plumber. The new plumber should have tested everything not knowing the background of the case.

Had he informed me I'd have spoken to my insurers and they could have fought the issue, evidence of the issue only came after I sued the customer. That's kind of by the by though. I believe he is trying to profiteer hence your opinions on the plastering requirements.

I do appreciate all your feedback.

Mark
 
The damage you see is everything that existed. I asked the customer for all photographic evidence of damage and everything you see is what was supplied. Do you see any damage regarding any of the walls?
 
Mark, You need to be more precise. Did the leak originate from your work or the work of the other plumber? Was it from a connector that you fitted or from that of the other plumber? If you can answer this question, we'll be able to assist you.
 
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The fitting would have failed in testing, it's as simple as that sadly. While I was on the job there were no leaks, nor were there leaks for a 3 weeks after. I don't have an issue arguing my case in terms of the plumbing though. It's clear cut, I wasn't able to complete my work. What concerns me is the plastering, that's kind of why I'm looking for a professional opinion on the matter.
 
Sorry didn't quite answer your last post there Spanky.

The customer says he recognised the leak on one day and it was repaired the following day. Repair to the ceiling/walls may have occured from a week/3 weeks later.

Mark
 
Sorry Minh, don't mean to sound rude, I'm looking for an opinion on the plastering, not on the plumbing. I wasn't allowed to finish work that I was contracted to do. I can fight my corner when it comes to the plumbing with ease, that's my expertise. Plastering isn't.

Mark
 
So its not whos at fault for the leak?? Its Opinions and prices on the plastering? It will vary tbh.if someones given him that quote I think it would be very difficult to prove otherwise? ..; ie he could have got three quotes from three different spreads, all different prices and opinions.
 
markrryan said:
Sorry didn't quite answer your last post there Spanky.

The customer says he recognised the leak on one day and it was repaired the following day. Repair to the ceiling/walls may have occured from a week/3 weeks later.

Mark
Click to expand...

I presume the water would have been cut off until the repair took place. Even still it would probably dry out after a few days, worst case which seems to be the case hack off allow the brick/block to dry out for a week. float and set it after that
 
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