tadelakt substrates

twitcher

Private Member
hey anyone got any experience with tadelakt?

I've only done a few solid walls so far, and they've come out alright.

I want to move onto doing shower cubicles, bath surrounds etc.

What do people recommend using - aqua panel, wedi boards etc?
 

fcoff

New Member
tadelakt is no goodin bathrooms,th real stuff comes from morocco, temperature is different to uk,and is too soft. Use Carrara 3 coat,Or classic.
 

fcoff

New Member
Twitcher, take it fromme it ain't good enough been doing it for years, why don't you tell me about Tadelakt then and what waxes work. Have worked all over the world, Dubai included so I do know a bit. We all have o[pinions that's mine and having used various Tadelakts, I know what's good and bad. Tema[peratre makes a mssive difference so does the Lime as I've said already.
 

twitcher

Private Member
ok, think i'm following you

but why would temperature make a difference with tadelakt? you mean in terms of laying it on or does it affect how long it lasts?
 

fcoff

New Member
How long it lasts, not just that the durability is not there. Why not ask around on forums to see what their take is. Thx
 

twitcher

Private Member
still don't understand why it's durability is affected by temperatures in this country. I think you need to tell us why.

what other forums are you on about?

ta
 

Render Systems

Private Member
as you all know on this thread that polished plasters are made from mainly lime and a pozzolan to carbonate it any lime based finish allows water to pass in and out of it, any polished plaster can be treated with waxes etc to stop water going into it. I have never used Takltelet personally but from what i have read about it it seems to be ok to use in wet rooms/bathrooms (my opinion dont want to get into and argument)
 

fcoff

New Member
They sell all Venetian, Tadelakt, Cementious and Intona, if acustomer wants a finish they get what they asked for.
 

twitcher

Private Member
you still aint told us why we shouldn't use tadelakt in this country because of it's presumably lower temperatures.

You've made some big claims here about all sorts of stuff without backing it up and then you point us towards gold trowel.

Can you see where I'm coming from?
 

fcoff

New Member
Experience is experience that's what I know, and as an applicator I do know the products. You see it's called underpinning knowledge that's what matters. So as for tadleakt and many other products you get what you buy, so when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong, i'm not making statements they are facts which can and have often been proven. Learn about processess and application and what goes where and what gear is good in certain temperatures then you're onto a winner. As G*******l, am not promoting them far from it, they do just good stuff, so when someone asks a question and various people answer they are opinons and advice. But you also ask questions, various people answer them, read what you read then do your research, and if you haven't got that experience and it seems you have an interest follow your dream, like many others do. At the end of the day life is for learning and we will never know it all. Hence the word experience.
 

twitcher

Private Member
right, so you reckon from experience that tadelakt aint durable in areas that get exposed to high temperature water?

is that what you're saying?
 

fcoff

New Member
Hi Twitcher, don't know what your expereince is, however, will not get into bun fight, as I said already depends what your using, ie type of tadelakt. As I said already I wouldn't PUT IT IN BATHROOMS WITH DIRECT WATER here in the UK. Read previous threads, but you know this already. There are better products out there. There are many waxes etc.. but you also need to know about those too. What type of gear have you been using then.
 

twitcher

Private Member
ok think we're finally getting there...

right, so you reckon through experience that tadelakt aint suitable in areas with water?

So, if you've got experience can you give us an example of how the tadelakt failed?

Then we might be able to work out why it failed.

I'm interested in this hence the title of this post being about tadelakt substrates. I'm not gonna write off tadelakt till I understand exactly why this has happened in *your* experience.

As for other posts on tadelakt, there aren't any as far as I know.

This aint an attempt at a ''bun-fight" - I aint got time for posing on t'internet - I just need to know WHY!
 

twitcher

Private Member
ok it's been some time now, and you haven't replied, although you've made comments since on other threads.

So for the benefit of this section on polished plaster, which could be starting to lose some credibility ;), I'll sum up what limited knowledge I have on tadelakt and substrates and why the finish could fail.

Substrates need to be properly fixed and waterproof - aqua panel or wedi. Think you could get away with moisture board in areas that aren't exposed to lots of water.

Application of tadelakt - 2 coats and compression with a ceramic stone. Any areas of tadelakt that aren't properly compressed - where you can still see the pores in the material, then the water will get through.

Make sure no harsh cleaning chemicals are used on the finish aferwards - this could make it fail too.

If I've missed anything - chip in!
 

fcoff

New Member
I have waitedn to see what you have to say. So like I've said before, which tadelakt are you using. So when you talk about this, from the txt book that's why I differ. As I have stated already the reason why it fails. Stay with your txt book, no offence, and then go a do a load then you will see what I'm talking about. I did ask for some of your work to be displayed. There are many users on here that have used it, and yet again, it depends where you get it from and what you are going over. The Aqua Panel you are talking about, is better with a tanking kit over it, and then and only then it depends on the tadelakt you are using and the waxes, simple. So as I have said already you are better using Carrara 3 coat and then classic 3 coat. That system is full proof in wetroom, shower room. Because of the durability and it stops possible penetration over the longevity.ie. 5 yrs down the line when everything has battered it.
 

twitcher

Private Member
fcoff said:
I have waitedn to see what you have to say. So like I've said before, which tadelakt are you using.
I've been using this tadelakt made by kreidezeit from mike wye

http://www.kreidezeit.de/EnglischeVersion/ProdukteENG/MerkblaetterPDFeng/Tadelakt_05_12_23_EN.pdf

So when you talk about this, from the txt book that's why I differ.As I have stated already the reason why it fails. Stay with your txt book, no offence, and then go a do a load then you will see what I'm talking about.
what text book?! I've been on a tadelakt course and read as much as I can about it. What's wrong with being informed about something? Isn't that what this forum is about?

I did ask for some of your work to be displayed.
no you didn't. but if it helps I'll put something up after the next job. I'm getting a portfolio together for advertising.

So as I have said already you are better using Carrara 3 coat and then classic 3 coat. That system is full proof
in wetroom, shower room. Because of the durability and it stops possible penetration over the longevity.ie. 5 yrs down the line when everything has battered it.
Carrara isn't tadelakt. Tadelakt is a different material to venetian polished plaster

You sure you aint got your wires crossed or you been on the cheez mate ::)

Like I said before if you've got all this experience behind you with using tadelakt - why don't you give us some examples of how it's failed and we can work out why.
 

fcoff

New Member
Carrara is better in bathrooms, yes it's different but more durable. When you did your course, surely they would shown you water direct onto Tadelakt. So you use german tadelakt from Cornwall, same with their colour additives but the dark ones have a shelf life of approximately 3 months. Morrocan tadelakt is the best, and the reason why the system does fail is because of the authenticity ie not the real macoy and idiots who don't use the correct system down to the waxing. Why get your tadelakt from germany via Mike Wye who retubs. Best way is to check the gear out is, buy the tadelakt from tangiers, take to a chemist, who will then tell youthe breakdown of the product and it's qualities. Cost about a grand to do, then you know what you using.
Going back to temperatures and why, is because its warmer less expansion and morrocan tadelakt likes the warm better than the cold. PS Not been on cheese,just crackers
 

twitcher

Private Member
fcoff said:
Best way is to check the gear out is, buy the tadelakt from tangiers, take to a chemist, who will then tell youthe breakdown of the product and it's qualities. Cost about a grand to do, then you know what you using.
Tadelakt's from marrakech in morocco not tangiers

'Traditionally, tadelakt is produced with the lime of the area of Marrakech.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadelakt

Why would I want to go to a chemist to get a breakdown of the product for a grand, when the company who makes it gives a full declaration of the product?!

• INGREDIENTS (FULL DECLARATION) Natural hydraulic lime, quartz sands of selected grain sizes, marble powder, clay, ashes, diatomaceous earth, and cellulose

http://www.kreidezeit.de/EnglischeVersion/ProdukteENG/MerkblaetterPDFeng/Tadelakt_05_12_23_EN.pdf

Going back to temperatures and why, is because its warmer less expansion and morrocan tadelakt likes the warm better than the cold. PS Not been on cheese,just crackers
surely it's the other way round - the warmer it is the more expansion? heat makes things expand
 

fcoff

New Member
Hi twitcher, It's better in warmer climates,tangeirs forms part of that which is opposite Gibraltar. you're right tadleakt is lime based, and so is carrara and in the UK it gives a better result and slight different finish, however, I would still use it in bathrooms. Insteasd of discussing rotating this discussion. Do a bathroom in Tadelakt and see for you self. It will look nice, there are major differences in Lime that's what I've said all along. As for the chemist that's exactly what I did years ago, to get a full understanding of what people were alledgedly saying, and how good there products were supposed to be. When you realise they are putting bonding agents with lime and emulsion with primer it becomes a problem.
 

Stojman

New Member
Tadelakt

Hi twitcher, It's better in warmer climates,tangeirs forms part of that which is opposite Gibraltar. you're right tadleakt is lime based, and so is carrara and in the UK it gives a better result and slight different finish, however, I would still use it in bathrooms. Insteasd of discussing rotating this discussion. Do a bathroom in Tadelakt and see for you self. It will look nice, there are major differences in Lime that's what I've said all along. As for the chemist that's exactly what I did years ago, to get a full understanding of what people were alledgedly saying, and how good there products were supposed to be. When you realise they are putting bonding agents with lime and emulsion with primer it becomes a problem.
Hi twitcher and fcoff,

This thread dates some time back now but hopefully I can help shed some light on this and assist with some of comments made concerning Tadelakt.
I am an employee of Mike Wye & Associates (based in Devon, not Cornwall!), suppliers of "Kreidezeit Tadelakt, which is made to a traditional Moroccan formula."

"Carrara is better in bathrooms, yes it's different but more durable":
Carrara or Carrara Marmorino is an Italian polished plaster based on a lime putty which has a slightly larger grain size than venetian plaster. This larger grain size means that the plaster is applied slightly thicker producing a stone-like appearance. It is possible to add pozzolans to something like a Carrara plaster to assist with water resistance in a bathroom or wet room. Waxes can also be applied to assist with this but when subject to hot water have a tendency to emulsify which can appear as white spots on the surface.
Yes, Carrara can be used in a bathroom environment but (as with many lime putty plasters) would need to be protected if in direct contact with water.
Tadelakt is based on a natural hydraulic lime (NHL) and has pozzolans naturally occurring in the limestone before it is crushed and burned so water-proofing is improved with the use of olive soaps and the burnishing/stoning process, no other additives are required.
NHL mortars and plasters are naturally stronger than their lime putty equivalents so I would question Carrara being "more durable" than Tadelakt.
Lime is hygroscopic in that it deals with moisture in the air by actively encouraging it in and then releasing gradually as humidity levels drop to maintain a balance. NHL and lime putty both display this property hence they are appropriate and can be beneficial for use in bathrooms.

"the dark ones have a shelf life of approximately 3 month":
Some pigments are not lime fast and so will deteriorate over time in a wet lime mix. The only pigment we supply which is affected in this way is ultramarine blue. However, Tadelakt is supplied as a powder and so pigments will not be affected until mixed with water. Therefore the lifespan of Tadelakt is determined by storage conditions and staying moisture-free.

I am not sure why you would want to go to the expense of having to test a Tadelakt bought direct from Morocco when ingredients are displayed on the Kreidezeit packaging.

I am not dismissing the use of Carrara but Tadelakt is an example of a polished plaster that can be used successfully in a wet room/shower room/bathroom/steam room environment. We have many many successful projects and satisfied customers, some examples of which can be found on our website.

Hope this helps :)
 
hi guys, substrates for tadelakt I would use a tanking system,wedi-impey or simular. Tadelakt is prone to micro cracking,you would need to keep soaping to stop the pasage of water. There are tadelakts out there that dont micro crack. Also ive been informed that mike wyes pigments at Are crap, he uses a white powder pigment and mixes liquid colourant to them. And sells them as natural earth pigments.
 

carraraboy

New Member
I agree with venetianplasterer. Carrara in my opinion is far better. Also what product is yours then. I have used many forms of tadelakt over the years and I know your products very very well, but obviously you do. Just like your lime putty, great for lime plastering but not in venetian.
 

carraraboy

New Member
Further to my thread. Also includes Sky Blue, Cambridge Blue, Orange Chromate, and to be honest many other colours, list is to endless to mention. Also your venetian isn't exactly that either is it. Still good for Lime plastering though.
 

jjp

Member
never seen tadelakt up close but interested in using it for wet room. Done carrara and classic on top and water proofed and waxed twice before. Finish good. Does the water proofer take out shine of plaster a bit. Also what is difference between finish. Is classic smoother and shinier. The problem i've found with Classic seemed to get white marks with water i assume from wax as wipes off. thanks
 

nickelarse

Private Member
have to reading this, twitcher, you asked a question. you obviously asked because your knowledge is limited to an extent in this area. a guy tells you his opinion and tells your he is experienced, and you just argued the toss with him the whole time and listened to nothing. after about your second or third post i would have told you to **** off if i was him. and now 2 more people have confirmed what the first guy said ie tanking system, mike wyes stuffs crap, carrara is better etc
 

twitcher

Private Member
have you used mike wye's stuff, do you know what carrara is?

I think people have been taking the piss on some of these threads. Yes, I accept there is a lack of knowledge and experience here, esp on my part - that's why I asked the question in the first place. I also think there are really opportunistic people on here who are trying to sell their own products, and by doing so are risking the integrity of this forum.

Alarm bells ring for me when people come on this part of the polished plaster forum, slag off a product, without any evidence, and promote their own stuff. It doesn't happen on the other parts of this plastering forum, does it?

Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree, but that's how it seems.
 

CKJ

Member
have you used mike wye's stuff, do you know what carrara is?

I think people have been taking the piss on some of these threads. Yes, I accept there is a lack of knowledge and experience here, esp on my part - that's why I asked the question in the first place. I also think there are really opportunistic people on here who are trying to sell their own products, and by doing so are risking the integrity of this forum.

Alarm bells ring for me when people come on this part of the polished plaster forum, slag off a product, without any evidence, and promote their own stuff. It doesn't happen on the other parts of this plastering forum, does it?

Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree, but that's how it seems.
Ive used mike wyes stuff and i dont like it, thats not to say you wont like it but compared to other products i have used its cr ap. Their stucco peels and dries chalky almost powdery and their mamorino is the same stuff with fine aggregate. Their pigments are all powder based and dont disperse well so they streak. I havent used their tradelakt but i have no intention of ever using this anyway when there is more controlable, durable and easier to use products available.

Notice how i didnt plug any products, thats because i dont sell any.
Just my opinion
 

Mike814

Member
Ive used mike wyes stuff and i dont like it, thats not to say you wont like it but compared to other products i have used its cr ap. Their stucco peels and dries chalky almost powdery and their mamorino is the same stuff with fine aggregate. Their pigments are all powder based and dont disperse well so they streak. I havent used their tradelakt but i have no intention of ever using this anyway when there is more controlable, durable and easier to use products available.

Notice how i didnt plug any products, thats because i dont sell any.
Just my opinion
I have also used the Mike Wye stuff. Chalky, peely, colour flare......just about everything **** really!!!!
 

nickelarse

Private Member
have you used mike wye's stuff, do you know what carrara is?

I think people have been taking the piss on some of these threads. Yes, I accept there is a lack of knowledge and experience here, esp on my part - that's why I asked the question in the first place. I also think there are really opportunistic people on here who are trying to sell their own products, and by doing so are risking the integrity of this forum.

Alarm bells ring for me when people come on this part of the polished plaster forum, slag off a product, without any evidence, and promote their own stuff. It doesn't happen on the other parts of this plastering forum, does it?

Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree, but that's how it seems.
im not claiming to be knowledgeable in the slightest. just dont get why people ask questions then argue with someone that gives them an answer. all he said was he prefered a different product. and its starting to look like he might be right
 
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