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whoputthebootin

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hi everyone just joined the forum, I have been a plasterer for 30 years specialising in fibrous and sand and lime plastering, but for the last 6 years, I have worked as a lecturer in plastering at a college, so I have been a bit insular to what is going on around the trade just lately apart from what ex colleagues are telling me, it would be good to hear from plasterers who have apprentices and what they think of entering a trade at the moment, any questions regarding qualifications are also welcome
 
Welcome to the forum, there are not many on here who actually like plastering but I love it and can I carry your books to the car?
 
More to the point what's your thoughts on the level , type, , quality, quantity of apprentice coming through nowadays.
Welcome to the forum, this should get interesting
 
johniosaif said:
do you teach now with spats, speedskim, super flex, do you teach how to sponge skim...
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we still teach the traditional methods of two coat skimming by Trowel, I personally let the students have a go of sponge skimming, i saw some lads do this in Nottinghamshire before I started teaching, we do have plastic trowels and the college has just last week purchased some speedskim tools and they are in the workshops for the students to use
 
whoputthebootin said:
we still teach the traditional methods of two coat skimming by Trowel, I personally let the students have a go of sponge skimming, i saw some lads do this in Nottinghamshire before I started teaching, we do have plastic trowels and the college has just last week purchased some speedskim tools and they are in the workshops for the students to use
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whats your view of the plastic trowels? re qualification my skills card says nvq2, is it difficult to get the nv3 and is it expensive, i may retire soon though ha ha
 
warriorupnorth said:
More to the point what's your thoughts on the level , type, , quality, quantity of apprentice coming through nowadays.
Welcome to the forum, this should get interesting
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the Quality of apprentices we get is up to you guys as you employ them and send them to college, I have been teaching Level 3 employed apprentices for the previous two years and i have had some really good lads who I would have employed myself and have obviously been allowed to plaster by the guy they have worked with and some really poor lads who have basically just been used as labourers for 3 years with very little use of hand Tools, as with all NVQ qualification I only Assess what is put in front of me, every apprentice has a work based recorder at the firm they work for who signs off tasks to say they are competent at that task, I only have to check the evidence is valid, current and authentic to assess it, so if say your apprentice cannot complete the task required for the unit and you are the work based recorder do not sign it, as it is the you who is saying they are competent. The current rate of apprentices is alarmingly low at the moment across the country, in a few years time there will be a skills shortage again
 
warriorupnorth said:
More to the point what's your thoughts on the level , type, , quality, quantity of apprentice coming through nowadays.
Welcome to the forum, this should get interesting
Click to expand...

the quality of apprentices is up to you guys as you employ them and teach them on site, I merely assess their NVQ evidence and teach a diploma, I have been Assessing level 3 NVQ for the previous 2 years and i have had some really good lads who have obviously been let loose with the tools who I would have employed and some really poor lads who have been used as labourers for 3 years, the shortage of apprentices across the country in all trades is alarmingly low, another skills shortage is likely in about 10 years time
 
johniosaif said:
whats your view of the plastic trowels? re qualification my skills card says nvq2, is it difficult to get the nv3 and is it expensive, i may retire soon though ha ha
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personally is still liked to use a steel trowel when I plastered as most of my solid plastering was in sand and lime, but i am open minded to new tools, as for a NVQ3 you can have on site assessment to gain this qualification, I take it you are over 24 years old, no need to go to a college, but to be honest unless you want to go into something like site managment or teaching there is no real need for it, as it it is fairly expensive to gain
 
whoputthebootin said:
the Quality of apprentices we get is up to you guys as you employ them and send them to college, I have been teaching Level 3 employed apprentices for the previous two years and i have had some really good lads who I would have employed myself and have obviously been allowed to plaster by the guy they have worked with and some really poor lads who have basically just been used as labourers for 3 years with very little use of hand Tools, as with all NVQ qualification I only Assess what is put in front of me, every apprentice has a work based recorder at the firm they work for who signs off tasks to say they are competent at that task, I only have to check the evidence is valid, current and authentic to assess it, so if say your apprentice cannot complete the task required for the unit and you are the work based recorder do not sign it, as it is the you who is saying they are competent. The current rate of apprentices is alarmingly low at the moment across the country, in a few years time there will be a skills shortage again
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so dont you actually teach anything? you say you assess and its upto their employer what exactly is the point of going to college?
 
whoputthebootin said:
personally is still liked to use a steel trowel when I plastered as most of my solid plastering was in sand and lime, but i am open minded to new tools, as for a NVQ3 you can have on site assessment to gain this qualification, I take it you are over 24 years old, no need to go to a college, but to be honest unless you want to go into something like site managment or teaching there is no real need for it, as it it is fairly expensive to gain
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Well that does shock me that a lecturer is saying there is no point gaining your level3 coz its expensive,what about the knowledge you actually gain doing it?
 
flynnyman said:
Well that does shock me that a lecturer is saying there is no point gaining your level3 coz its expensive,what about the knowledge you actually gain doing it?
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It was a practical answer to somone over the age of 24,of course if acheiving a Level 3 brings monetary gain go for it, of course there are advantages of gaining your Level 3 in plastering if you need them to move on from the job you are doing, as an example i have a Level 4 teaching qualifications and could work towards a foundation Degree in teaching (level 5) but until i need to do this for my job role it is too expensive for me, as for the knowledge gained from an NVQ level 3 the candidate must be doing the level 3 work in the workplace already as an NVQ is assessment based not taught and as such must prove they are working at this level, this is the area most people do not understand, i assess NVQ qualifications and teach Diplomas which is a training certificate, most apprentices are on a dual qualification this is a NVQ and a Diploma at the same time, full time students are working towards a Diploma only, which does not make them qualified plasterers (no NVQ), at the moment full time students on a Diploma only are outnumbering apprentices very heavily, which is worrying for the industry as a whole not just plastering.

below is a link to the National Qualifications Framework which states at level 3 : It is appropriate for people wishing to go to university, people working independently, or in some areas supervising and training others in their field of work.

National Qualifications Framework - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia hope this helps
 
It wasnt a dig mate just seemed odd, i have looked into teaching at my local college which has only just started plastering (they do every other trade). I am advanced craft what would i need to start teaching?
When i was at college over 20 years ago i did C&G and worked as a plasterer, we did block release at college and were taught plastering for 2 years then in the third year was fibrous and site procedures. Like you said earlier there were guys in the third year who were **** at plastering but could mix up quicker than anyone else coz thats what they mainly done, but they were still taught how to do it in college and gained the qualification through assesments in college. There was also a skills test held at a skills centre over two days which covered most things a plasterer would need to know, maybe we need to go back to the way thing s were done back then to get a more skilled apprentice or trainee? Oh and welcome to the forum x
 
flynnyman said:
It wasnt a dig mate just seemed odd, i have looked into teaching at my local college which has only just started plastering (they do every other trade). I am advanced craft what would i need to start teaching?
When i was at college over 20 years ago i did C&G and worked as a plasterer, we did block release at college and were taught plastering for 2 years then in the third year was fibrous and site procedures. Like you said earlier there were guys in the third year who were **** at plastering but could mix up quicker than anyone else coz thats what they mainly done, but they were still taught how to do it in college and gained the qualification through assesments in college. There was also a skills test held at a skills centre over two days which covered most things a plasterer would need to know, maybe we need to go back to the way thing s were done back then to get a more skilled apprentice or trainee? Oh and welcome to the forum x
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hi i never took it as a dig i was just trying to say it how it is, you could start teaching with your advanced craft its still recognised by colleges, you would have to be working towards a teaching qualification though and complete a A1 qualification to assess NVQ qualifications, which a college or training centre should put you on, I will be honest with you its not easy teaching, I expected it to be like you described and how I remembered it, I found it a real eye opener, lots of full time students who have left school with minimum reading and writing skills starting at Entry 3, I must admit my personality and working in a trade where piss taking was a daily norm nearly made me quit teaching, i had to really adjust to being more academic and bite my tongue a few times, i was described by someone as a "rough diamond that just needs the sharp edges polishing off" I guess most of us with a long career behind us are like that, but I got over it and really enjoy being with students who want to learn, your sentiments about going back to how it was, I personally totally agree with for employed students, but for the full timers it would not work as they are only on a training course, if you get the chance to teach give it a go you have nothing to lose you will always keep your tools I have

could i just say thank you to everyone, I expected more flack for teaching but got the response I really wanted which is interest, the only way we can make things better for apprentice's is for employers and colleges and lecturers like me to work together towards this goal
 
whoputthebootin said:
the quality of apprentices is up to you guys as you employ them and teach them on site, I merely assess their NVQ evidence and teach a diploma, I have been Assessing level 3 NVQ for the previous 2 years and i have had some really good lads who have obviously been let loose with the tools who I would have employed and some really poor lads who have been used as labourers for 3 years, the shortage of apprentices across the country in all trades is alarmingly low, another skills shortage is likely in about 10 years time
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alright,

dont normally come in this bit on this forum, so its pure chance ive just seen this.


I completed my apprenticeship at leeds about 10 years ago, guys called wayne chapplow, lee bogg taught us, are they still there.
I completed my level 3 whilst there and it was a pain to get evidence, do they still teach fibrous as part of your level 3.

What incentives are they to take on apprentices now adays? im looking at taking one on this year, more to give a bit back really, as its how i started out.
we only tackle rendering though so would an apprentice still be able to fulfil the criteria to get a minimum nvq2?

Im from Skipton way, but Leeds was the closest college to me in the late 90's. does the college teach mono, acrylic render techniques?
 
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Hello mate can you explane the procedure to take an apprentice on inc what is required and commitments from the lad who takes him on
 
We are all interested in the way a teacher sees the way people who are training and how ready he thinks they are for the reality of been a sole trader down the line, do they see how tough the climate is at the minute in a lot of the country, London is fairly often an exception to the rule,do they understand how hard plastering is on a persons body, very sad to see some have poor educational skills,that would not stop them from succeeding but it will not aid them either.
 
johniosaif said:
We are all interested in the way a teacher sees the way people who are training and how ready he thinks they are for the reality of been a sole trader down the line, do they see how tough the climate is at the minute in a lot of the country, London is fairly often an exception to the rule,do they understand how hard plastering is on a persons body, very sad to see some have poor educational skills,that would not stop them from succeeding but it will not aid them either.
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indeed, im just intrested to see how nvq structure has changed over the years, and more to the point is it changing with the times with modern rendering techniques and machine plastering etc.
and when i was doing my apprentecship i was paid peanuts, now all young lads want to earn chunks of money straight away, id be intrested to hear what he thinks of young lads perspectives on the trade from who he meets.
 
owls said:
alright,

dont normally come in this bit on this forum, so its pure chance ive just seen this.


I completed my apprenticeship at leeds about 10 years ago, guys called wayne chapplow, lee bogg taught us, are they still there.
I completed my level 3 whilst there and it was a pain to get evidence, do they still teach fibrous as part of your level 3.

What incentives are they to take on apprentices now adays? im looking at taking one on this year, more to give a bit back really, as its how i started out.
we only tackle rendering though so would an apprentice still be able to fulfil the criteria to get a minimum nvq2?

Im from Skipton way, but Leeds was the closest college to me in the late 90's. does the college teach mono, acrylic render techniques?
Click to expand...
HI Wayne is now a faculty director and Lee is a manager at Selby college, it would be hard for a student who only does rendering to gain all the evidence required to complete a level 2, level 3 is now split solid or fibrous so on your skills card it will state which part of the trade you took the qualification in, as for incentives i think there are some form of payments for taking on an apprentice, its not something i deal with but I can find out for you, if anyone is looking for an apprentice take my advice and contact your local college and ask if they have any full time students who are any good, i have sent a few to firms for work experience and they have been taken on and transferred to employed groups, if your local college is any good they will only send people to you who have good attendance timekeeping and can cut it in our trade if trained on site properly, we do teach mono rendering and Weber come in to college often to demonstrate their products, we had some acrylic and let some learners who race ahead have a go with it but it is not in the curriculum yet, but the qualifications are being re-written as we speak
 
The building industry as a whole were being told from the mid eighties they were not training enough people and it has not been getting any better since. The low educational level is why my son left an apprenticeship 6 years ago he's a bright lad and left school with 8 gcse 5 of em C's or better but, he was bored sh*tless at college cos all except him in the class did not have lvl2 english or maths ie grade C or better. If anyone is interested in starting a proper apprentice contact your local CITB office and they will tell you all the craic
 
spunky said:
Hello mate can you explane the procedure to take an apprentice on inc what is required and commitments from the lad who takes him on
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HI please see my last reply for the best way to find a descent lad, with our college we take Cskills students (you can contact them direct and ask) who have come through the Apprenticeship web site and we have our own work based advisor's who liaise between the employer and the lecturer regarding the student, the student is expected to gather evidence or demonstrate that they are working at NVQ level 2 this is a two year process as you cannot expect an apprentice to have experience prior to starting, the employer or employee for the firm must become a work based recorder and sign off any units the apprentice completes with him, so it is the recorder who is saying the lad is competent at that particular task, the commitment from the apprentice is to work in a manner with his employer so as he can gain the experience and gather the evidence, also to attend college as timetabled
 
whoputthebootin said:
HI Wayne is now a faculty director and Lee is a manager at Selby college, it would be hard for a student who only does rendering to gain all the evidence required to complete a level 2, level 3 is now split solid or fibrous so on your skills card it will state which part of the trade you took the qualification in, as for incentives i think there are some form of payments for taking on an apprentice, its not something i deal with but I can find out for you, if anyone is looking for an apprentice take my advice and contact your local college and ask if they have any full time students who are any good, i have sent a few to firms for work experience and they have been taken on and transferred to employed groups, if your local college is any good they will only send people to you who have good attendance timekeeping and can cut it in our trade if trained on site properly, we do teach mono rendering and Weber come in to college often to demonstrate their products, we had some acrylic and let some learners who race ahead have a go with it but it is not in the curriculum yet, but the qualifications are being re-written as we speak
Click to expand...

its good to know that the the curriculam is changing with the times, i gathered they might not be able to get the criteria for nvqs just rendering.
hes a decent fella is wayne, glad to hear hes doing well for himself.

to be honest im looking at donating a bit of my time teaching and or some resources to our local college in a rendering capacity, ive been lucky enough to build a half decent outfit up, so i can spare a bit of money and resources to the cause its just which avenue i go down with it. Im a rendering consultant to a couple of large build companies and im involved with a large render manufactorer[i wont mention the brand] so I feel I could contribute in some way on a practical level about different render systems, even if its just showing lads the appication of renders and techinques, just giving a bit back, not some kind of ego trip you know.
 
raggles said:
The building industry as a whole were being told from the mid eighties they were not training enough people and it has not been getting any better since. The low educational level is why my son left an apprenticeship 6 years ago he's a bright lad and left school with 8 gcse 5 of em C's or better but, he was bored sh*tless at college cos all except him in the class did not have lvl2 english or maths ie grade C or better. If anyone is interested in starting a proper apprentice contact your local CITB office and they will tell you all the craic
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i agree with your sentiments, the reason for this poor level of maths and English is schools failing our kids, from what some have told me if you are bright they bend over backwards to help them the rest are there to make up the numbers, i was shocked when i first found out but it is sadly the norm in schools now, the reason building as a trade is attracting the lower academic end is it is just not attractive any more to someone who has good grades, they can get less physical jobs for the same if not more money, the apprenticeship branch of the CITB is now called Cskills or to give it its full title Construction Skills

this is a link to their youtube channel

CITB-ConstructionSkills www.cskills.org - YouTube
 
owls said:
its good to know that the the curriculam is changing with the times, i gathered they might not be able to get the criteria for nvqs just rendering.
hes a decent fella is wayne, glad to hear hes doing well for himself.

to be honest im looking at donating a bit of my time teaching and or some resources to our local college in a rendering capacity, ive been lucky enough to build a half decent outfit up, so i can spare a bit of money and resources to the cause its just which avenue i go down with it. Im a rendering consultant to a couple of large build companies and im involved with a large render manufactorer[i wont mention the brand] so I feel I could contribute in some way on a practical level about different render systems, even if its just showing lads the appication of renders and techinques, just giving a bit back, not some kind of ego trip you know.
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this is great, its what is needed interaction between firms and colleges i am all for it, if you ever wanted to demonstrate or speak to students about working in the trade i could organise it for you, it is always good for full time students to hear from a company what is expected to be successful in the trade, we do have some firms who come in but not many
 
Good for you Owls.

I found in the 90's that a few lads on the yts scheme who wanted plastering was of low academic levels. It is sad but plastering is seen as such an easy trade to get into. Fair enough you might be not so good with your English and Maths but still turn out a good spread. Like said, there are better paid and easier jobs than plastering for those with good grades.

I do find though that a lot of the lads that came my way was from poor backgrounds and have little ambition to get up the property ladder. But even if they had they would be held back in business by the non educated men that start up and undercut us all. These men that live in Council houses, benefits related and only charge for that day without thinking of when they are rained off tomorrow (renderers) they have no income but a transit to pay for and the wheels are not turning. They are always skint, desperate for money and spoil it for the rest of us business minded people.

When I was in college I was taught how to measure up from plans and allow for wastage and overheads. But then there was only 3 of us from private companies, the rest was from the local Council and that part of City & Guilds went over their heads.

Only us 3 from the private companies thrived and went into advanced.

I have though bumped into some of my failures in recent years who at their short time with me thought my advise was b*ll***s at the time. They have since grown up and thanked me for my advise and admitted I was right they was wrong. They are now doing well in their chosen profession.
 
whoputthebootin said:
this is great, its what is needed interaction between firms and colleges i am all for it, if you ever wanted to demonstrate or speak to students about working in the trade i could organise it for you, it is always good for full time students to hear from a company what is expected to be successful in the trade, we do have some firms who come in but not many
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Ping an email address up, and we,ll see if we can sort something out.i can't pm you yet. I won't put mine up because I don't want a voicemail from mark bond
 
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