Garden wall - best solution?

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FreeD

FreeD

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Ok so I had a look a a job today, garden wall, most of the render is shot on it.

The wall was originally built with lime mortar, in my opinion shouldn't be rendered with sand and cement.

So what are my options - I was think hack off render..re point with lime...or hack of render - render with lime

Any advice appreciated.
 
You could just use a really week mix like a 6-1-1 scratch and a 7-1-2 top coat don't use waterproofer in either coat just give it a good soaking and you could bed some render mesh into the scratch coat
 
I was thinking that Dave, hes put copings on top (previously rendered) to stop water getting in from above. I'm thinking even with a weak mix its going to blow...I've got some pics here. Got loads of work coming in Dave but need hand through the week no anyone who's not on site who is reliable, clean/tidy quality spread?

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No cement with hydraulic or putty lime mate there are other ways of helping it go of quicker.
 
Freed no disrespect but its just a garden wall I wouldn't bother with lime mate it could still crack and blow etc
 
Freed if your budget allows use Thermocromex it would look great on this job and mesh it.
 
Thats what I thought Dave, what are you thinking then just remove render, point and paint brickwork? That is so labour intensive though, got to be honect m8 i've used weak s/c mixes on other lime garden walls and they have cracked so want to avoid it.
 
Knock off the render or some of it where the cracking is located. If no rustng metal ties, most likely water damage and freezing cycle of expansion and contraction - but who knows mortar might be shot. If the strength of the wall remains on the mortar joints ie it has,'t cracked so that you are left with panels of loose brickwork. that can be pushed over - good. Are the bricks sound or have they lost there surface due to poor quality or damage through frost cycles? Having found out what the condition of the wall - decide on a solution. You are obviously going to deal with both sides of the wall?
 
I think ideal solution maybe no render. The customer isn't to bothered either way. Yes i'm doing both sides, these lime mortar walls are not stable most of them are built really poorly, if anyone recommend a system which is highly unlikely to crack like this one has then I would like to know.
 
sliemasteve said:
Knock off the render or some of it where the cracking is located. If no rustng metal ties, most likely water damage and freezing cycle of expansion and contraction - but who knows mortar might be shot. If the strength of the wall remains on the mortar joints ie it has,'t cracked so that you are left with panels of loose brickwork. that can be pushed over - good. Are the bricks sound or have they lost there surface due to poor quality or damage through frost cycles? Having found out what the condition of the wall - decide on a solution. You are obviously going to deal with both sides of the wall?
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I need to know the rendering solution now if there is one to price it.
 
Make sure you know what is the cause. If its unstable don't get involved - it needs rebuilding to avoid a Heysel. Where there is no coping and header course to top of wall I'd guess at water damage but where there is a coping assuming its been there since wall was rendered I'd be less sure -rusting metal embeded in a mortar joints cracks render in the same way. But absence of a dpc below coping joints might allow some water directly in to brickwork although difficult to see how this could result in such significant cracking of render.

If wall is sound Spunky might be offering best solution. Where I now live they render one-coat (monocouche) and they never use bell cast or dpc and take it down to the ground but it is always onto a concrete block ( or terracotta block) background with s&c joints - this lessens or eliminates problems with the unmentionable phenomena that irish and I sometimes chat about. Lime mortar joints allow more movement this might be of some or no importance with a monocouche render but this outside my experience.
 
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sliemasteve said:
Make sure you know what is the cause. If its unstable don't get involved - it needs rebuilding to avoid a Heysel. Where there is no coping and header course to top of wall I'd guess at water damage but where there is a coping assuming its been there since wall was rendered I'd be less sure -rusting metal embeded in a mortar joints cracks render in the same way. But absence of a dpc below coping joints might allow some water directly in to brickwork although difficult to see how this could result in such significant cracking of render.

If wall is sound Spunky might be offering best solution. Where I now live they render one-coat (monocouche) and they never use bell cast or dpc and take it down to the ground but it is always onto a concrete block ( or terracotta block) background with s&c joints - this lessens or eliminates problems with the unmentionable imaginary phenomena that irish and I sometimes chat about. Lime mortar joints allow more movement this might be of some or no importance with a monocouche render but this outside my experience.
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At last:rolleyes)
 
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sliemasteve said:
Make sure you know what is the cause. If its unstable don't get involved - it needs rebuilding to avoid a Heysel. Where there is no coping and header course to top of wall I'd guess at water damage but where there is a coping assuming its been there since wall was rendered I'd be less sure -rusting metal embeded in a mortar joints cracks render in the same way. But absence of a dpc below coping joints might allow some water directly in to brickwork although difficult to see how this could result in such significant cracking of render.

If wall is sound Spunky might be offering best solution. Where I now live they render one-coat (monocouche) and they never use bell cast or dpc and take it down to the ground but it is always onto a concrete block ( or terracotta block) background with s&c joints - this lessens or eliminates problems with the unmentionable phenomena that irish and I sometimes chat about. Lime mortar joints allow more movement this might be of some or no importance with a monocouche render but this outside my experience.
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Thanks Steve.

The coping is new. I think water has previously got in via top and couldn't get out..freeze/thaw so has blown render. Generally I think the wall is stable, to the eye it doesn't look like its leaning over or anything. But I wouldn't know for sure until render is off. There is movement in these walls, no doubt and mono is cement based, may get away with it but don't really want to take the risk. May contact weber on Monday get a spec.

What do you mean rusting metal embeded in mortar joints?
 
Funny how the render has cracked in exactly the same place both sides this to me suggest movement.
 

What do you mean rusting metal embeded in mortar joints?

In an earlier existence I used to remove rusted wall ties in cavity wall construction and replace with stainless steel.

In the outer leaf wall ties corrode. For example wrought iron plate can expand from 5 mm by several hundred percent. In the whole wall, from base to gutter the wall might rise by 200 or 300 mm or more - this is called the pagoda effect. it demonstrates the expanding power associated with rusting

It happens to galavanised as well. If Dannymac happended to be near Clecheaton library with his camera he could visit the yard to the rear of 6 Grange Rd Here a metal plate embedded in the wall ( house built 1905) which served to fix a timber pole of a washing line rusted and lifted all the courses of brickwork above. I rebuilt the top part of the wall because the break in the bond meant it could have been pushed over. This can be seen by the difference in colour between the old and new mortar.

The rusting effect can be accelerated when covered over by render since the wall does not dry out as easily between wet periods.

The rusting affect can be seen all over the place when you are aware of it. Anchors for metal railings bursting the stone or brick work in garden walls same for metals security bars around windows etc etc.

The importance of finding out what the cause is, rather than simply quoting for a solution is that when offering a solution to a client you are performing the role, of a building surveyor, architect or structural engineer - take your pick. In this capacity you are legally required to demonstrate the average level of competence of members of these professions. Investigating and understanding why often reveals surprises. The average building surveyor is familiar with the rusting of embedded metal in walling. ​




 
I had no idea about that Steve. So are you saying there could have been metal in this wall? What would its purpose have been?
 
When i worked in Holland we always a 6.1.1. mix for the brickwork but directly over steel lintols it was S&C only as they said the lime reacts with steel.
 
One of your photos shows an anchor but it is more likely to be metal from an earlier usage. It only needs one piece of metal to lift a whole mortar course. Its easier to expose and see whats happening than speculate as to the endless possibilties. The issue is, is there metal there or is the cracking simply due to water or some other cause - have a look.
 
i would fix rib lath to the wall (if the bricks allow this and dont start moving)and two coat render,if you use hydraulic lime you dont need a pozzolan.
 
No you dont only with putty, hydraulic is different and goes of quicker but still needs care i just couldnt be arsed explaining it all as ive explained it all before, no offence Dan just google it all the info is there.
 
Try using a metal detector first. Then, if you don't find any you could carbon date the mortar. If its Roman you could use slaked lime or jam.

Me personally ?, I'd just render it
 
Can't believe it sometimes after a hard days throwing on the Easifill all day and you get questions like this. I'm moving to France/Malta :RpS_biggrin:
 
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